FKL

Don't you think something like this would have been better asked over a private message? The Tiguan was mentioned to compare the swiss watch statements about the crv and Insight. The remark about slow dealerships was pretty cute. Here's another one: vw brand sales are not down ~40%YOY like the rest.

mmarshall

The Tiguan does some things well, and has some good materials in some areas, but its overall assembly precision does not impress me as much as Honda's, and I find the column stalks in many VWs (and other German-designed cars) to be flimsy and cheap-feeling. That is my findings and I will stick with them, but I respect your right to disagree, and for those reasons you choose to disagree. When I post a review (usually, but not aways, done by request), that is public information, and dissenting opinions are welcome, as long as they remain within CL posting rules.


I don't get into sales levels very much, because I live in a very affulent area (Fairfax County, VA, where I live, and Montgomery County, MD, right across the river are the top two counties in the U.S. in average income). That has traditionally been because the Federal Government and a lot of high-tech companies are here, and makes this area resistant to downturns in a recession. Cars seem to sell here (as in the huge Los Angeles area too), no matter what the economic conditions are in the rest of the country, and there are a huge number of dealerships in the local area (one reason why I can do so many reviews).

FKL

I have the greatest repeat for you and your opinions, mmmarshall. I just dont see much truth in the Honda build quality stuff. The physical vehicle just isn't as solid and complete as a vw. There is so much more to a car that two stalks and the way Honda builds their vehicles is simply less refined, but definitely more simple. Doors are lighter, interior refinement is more downmarket, underbodies are cheaply done with no coating or shielding, even the sun visors seen less designed. Then you have prop hoods, poorly finished trunks with unlined lids, and even cheap feeling headliner. Where you blatantly notice the corners cut is in the roadnoise in virtually all Honda products. When I drive in the rain with my 04 accord, the noise of the water thumping up against the wheel wells is nearly unbearable. It's because of all this that I take subject to the swiss watch quality. The quality as cheap in the places nobody looks.

mmarshall

I agree that road noise is a problem in some Honda products, but that doesn't necessarily mean poor assembly quality. That just means that either not enough insulation was used in the wheel wells, or the tires have an overly-aggressive tread pattern (as is common with some winter-capable or off-road tires). The Honda factory-robots and assembly-line workers do a superb job (IMO some of the best in the industry) assembling the cars they do, with the parts that they are given by specs. If an Accord or Civic does not have enough insulation in the wheel wells to properly dampen road noise, that isn't the fault of the workers and robots who assemble the cars.....they do a superb job.

And a quiet-running car, for example, does not necessarily mean a well-built one. Look at some of your Jaguars and Mercedes, for example.....cars known for smoothness and quietness. Some of them spend more time in the repair shop then than out. Other cars that DO ride smoothly and quietly, like the Lexus LS460, GS460, RX350, etc.....are built like a (may I please use the term again ?......Swiss Watch)

mmarshall

Next planned reviews:

2010 Chevrolet Camaro

2010 Toyota Prius

2010 BMW 750i (if possible)

GSteg

iTrader: (15)

I just saw the new Insight on the road today. It looks pretty darn good. Better than I expected.

IS350jet

I don't think VW's are *bad* cars. I do think Hondas are better, though. More people feel that way than the other way around. I'm simply pointing out that you seem to compare VW to EVERYTHING. Tell me, how on earth did the Tiguan V Insight interior quality come into play? All you do is post over and over again about how you have both, an Accord, and a Passat, an if anybody should know, it's you, because you have both. I'm not buying it. I'm sorry, but you're just a walking, talking, Volkswagen billboard. You have a lot of insight (no pun intended) in most of your posts and I truly enjoy reading them, but evertime you bring up VW, I just cringe.

bagwell

nice post...

I personally have never owned a VW because of their crappy reliability concerning electronics plus the only car they build with good MPG is the Jetta diesel and I hate diesel (would never drive a beetle). Where is their hydrid technology?

Honda seems light-years ahead of them reliability/technology/MPG wise.

I really like the looks of the Jetta btw.

nthach

I think VW knows how to make a great car - but aesthetics and dynamics mean jack with shoddy French and German electronics and subpar reliability. I wouldn't mind a GTI or a Jetta GLI/TDI.

Here's the funny thing about the French and German automotive suppliers such as Valeo, Bosch, Siemens VDO and Continental - they also supply Detroit, Japan and Korea but for some reason Bosch or Siemens electronics in a Hyundai tend to work much better than the ones in a Mercedes. Honda uses Valeo or Siemens stuff too and I've haven't heard of any problems with those. The ABS/ESP system used in the new Insight is not from Nissin which is Honda's brake supplier - it's from ATE which is owned by Continental.

UDel

I have driven several Hondas/Acuras and my family and I have owned several I agree with mmmarshall, they overall have very good build quality and are very reliable more so then any VW I have been in. I have never really been very impressed with the build quality of any VWs I have been in or driven aside from my friends older Passat. His Passat interior had some nice interior materials and a nice design and the deep blue lighting was nice but I would not even say the build quality was all that great or superior to a Honda and the car was always having expensive issues one right after the other. My dads coworker just got a used VW Phaeton that he was very excited about and had to get rid of it after 3 weeks because it was a lemon and had so many issues and problems that were going to cost a fortune to fix. My ex girlfriend got a VW Jetta a few years ago she chose over a civic/corolla only because she thought the VW looked nicer and it also has had a bunch of issues and she regrets not getting the more reliable better made civic/corolla. I sat in her Jetta and did not find the materials or build quality that good and did not even seem as good as a Honda/Toyota but when you first look at it, it does look nice at the surface. The VW Toureg is one of the most unreliable SUVs you can buy, it even came at number 1 for being most unreliable in some tests, I believe one was Consumer reports.

Overall Hondas/Toyotas/Lexus/Acura's are just better built and much more reliable over VW. This is just not my personal view or experience but from pretty much all the tests/reviews/surveys. I have never talked to or known anyone that has had very good reliability experiences with VWs but have spoken to people that still like/love their VW despite them having a bunch of issues with them so there is an appeal. VW are generally known to have issues, especially electrical and being German vehicles are also going to cost much more to fix then your average American/Japanese car and that is one of the main reasons they don't sell in large numbers in the US. You may have had good luck with your VWs and may have had one of the few bad examples of a Honda product but that is just not the norm.

Who really cares if the new VW Tiguan or some other VW model has maybe a few softer touch materials then a Honda or nicer sunvisors/headliner then a Honda when its highly likely the VW is going to give the owner bad/shaky reliability that is going to be expensive to fix where the Honda is most likely going to be very reliable, well built, and trouble free based on past and present experiences/ratings/tests and give the owner less headaches. I just could never recommend someone get say a VW Toureg over a Honda Pilot/Acura MDX or Toyota 4 runner/Lexus GX just because the interior maybe a little nicer(the Toureg does have a nice looking interior) as a nicer interior does not make up for all the reliability problems/issues a VW like a Toureg/Phaeton etc is plagued with. VW may have some softer interior materials in some models over some Honda models but they certainly don't have the reliability/dependability over Honda and in the end reliability is much more important.

mmarshall

Studies have been done on this matter, and one of the things that they have found is that Asian (i.e. Japanese/Korean) vehicles have better-designed connectors that are easier to install on the assembly line (it can be difficult, of course, bending down like a pretzel to install relays and connectors, say, under the dash or under the seats). The Asian parts are easy to fit and connect by feel alone, without actually having to see them, and go together with a solid "click" that locks them securely in place. The connectors used in many European cars, by contrast, are more difficult to install, don't lock as securely, and are more likely to come apart, disabling that part of the electrical system. Some European manufacturers are taking steps to address that problem......which may partly explain the improving reliability of some recent Mercedes products.

nthach

Case in point - Honda and Toyota are still using Yazaki or Sumitomo Electric made harnesses and while they're using their traditional connectors with locking tabs, they're starting to adopt ZIF connectors with a swing-lever such as that used on processor sockets on computers. It gives you tactile and visual confirmation that the connection is secure. On the other hand, the Germans and Americans tend to use 2-part connectors with a separate locking lance or clip which can be a trick to insert if the 2 connector halves aren't in all the way. And their suppliers who make the harnesses buy them from AMP, Tyco or Molex - while the Japanese have things made in-house.

bagwell

damn, no way I could ever buy one with the plastic wheel covers.....

mmarshall

Well then, spend a little more and get an EX. The EX, besides the alloy wheels, also comes with a cargo-cover that the LX model SHOULD have, and doesn't.

FKL

No. VW is #3 and sell far more vehicles than Honda. If I didn't see all of the great things Honda does correctly, I wouldn't have spent tens of thousands of dollars on two of them. With that said, I won't sit here and blatantly fall in line with what is, in my opinion, a seriously flawed mentality that a Honda is built better than a VW on a physical basis. I don't see how this is the case, becuase everywhere Ilook, from the trunk, to the under-carriage, to the engine bay - it's clear to me that the designers back in Germany spent more time on every last tiny bit, more than Honda. This may be over-engineering, but it's what adds the extra polish which Honda does not include. This isn't based soley alone on a "soft touch interior" (which they do have), but extends to the entire vehicle. It's tiny things like a meticulosuly lined trunk bay with chrome swing out tie down hooks, a first aid compartment, things like a fully galvanized undercarriage, rubber door sills to prevent scraping, just the weight of every door in general. Now that's build quality, not how well robots and workers on an assembly line construct a less expensive and less refined vehicle on a material and design level. Being expensive to repair and having high repair costs doesn't neccessarily translate into poor build quality and poor refinement, two things which Honda, in my opinion, simply cannot compete with VW on (just as it's a dream to think VW can deliver Honda-esque reliability).