FKL

No, my two Hondas have been much less costly to own than the Volkswagen.

The Touareg often gets slotted with those cheaper and less capable mid-sized Japanese entrants, but in reality the Touareg is the Porsche Cayenne. It's mean't to compete with the X5s and Range Rovers of the world (the two Benchmark vehicles), and offers the off-roading capabilities, street credentials and refinement to back it up.

Every model has a better interior, I don't see this even up for debate. What's important is relative. If what you said were the way every buyer made decisions, there would be no European cars bought anywhere.

mmarshall

That is usually the case.



Yes and no. The Touraeg and Cayenne do come from the same unibody general platform, but the Cayenne is far more sport-oriented and set up for acceleration/handling. The Touraeg, in contrast, is more of a traditional off-road SUV.....one of the very few unibody SUVs to do well in hard off-road conditions, where it usually takes a body-on-frame chassis for durability.


European governments tend to use strong protectionist measures to safeguard their own car industries (more so than us until recently) and encourage sales of vehicles from manufacturers in their own countries.

FKL

You do get rewarded. Case in point, the state of the art 4-link front suspension from the Audi A4. Rides more costly than the Honda and virtually eliminates torque steer (try hammering a V6 Accord from a stop). You pay for this in control arms that need to be replaced every hundred thousand miles, but it's virtues are undeniable.




Point is the Touareg is built to a much more sophisticated level than Honda Pilot, or a 4-Runner, which are essentially run of the mill appliance SUVs for the droves.




The Japanese would never allow a foreign automotive plant in their state. How's that for protectionism? No comparison at all, and to the Japanese, their manufacturing base is a matter of national security (something the US should learn as well). It's even worse in South Korea (look at the way they tax imports). Last time I looked, Europe has manufacturing facilities from manufactures all over the world (Ford, GM, Toyota, Honda).

STIG

I also happen to have 4runner, which you called run of the mill appliance suv. Point me a terrain where the Touareg is capable and the T4R isn't.

FKL

Look at the pricing difference between a 4-Runner and a T-Reg. There are major differences between the two, and it isn't just the stale "reliability" topic. And yes, the 4-Runner is a much more mainstream SUV than the Touareg, both in design and function. Doesn't mean it's bad, I actually prefer the 4-Runner to any Japanese unibody "C/SUV" - the Touareg just isn't competing with Highlanders/4-Runners/Pilots - the price alone confirms this.

mmarshall

No doubt the Japanese also use protectionism. What I meant, though, by European "protectionism", is that they also use tax/tariff measures, and the "foreign" auto plants they usually have are from European branches of companies like Ford and GM (Opel, GM's German arm, is a good example). These European "branches", in some cases, are either partially state-owned or state-subsidized.

nthach

The Touareg is the hipster H2, the suspension is too complex and worrisome for any off-roading, unless the side of the road or Burning Man counts,

FKL

And the suspension system found in a Range Rover isn't complex? Of course the Hummer is simpler, but it is miles less refined than a RangeRover/Cayenne/X5/T-Reg. The Europeans put a high emphasis on actual road performance as well. I wouldn't want to throw an H2 around my favorite backroad, in fact, the thought wouldn't even cross my mind.

and last but not least, one of my favorites

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wW288BZ57fY

Now, I'll exit this thread to get it back on topic

I8ABMR

I am amazed the Hondas insight dethroned the Prius on the first shot. Damn Honda is good. Many of us Lexus guys are a little harsh on honda. I dont know why

nthach

I've driven a few LR3s and Range Rovers at work, I like them, but I don't want to even think about how much it will cost to replace a blown air strut. The struts are assembled by Delphi in the US, using Firestone airbags - but don't expect to walk into NAPA/Fleetpride or any truck parts house to get a airbag for those - Firestone and Delphi designed them specifically for Ford.

mmarshall

Except for usually being on the cutting edge of new engine technology, where Honda often is in the lead, Honda's enginering isn't nececessarily any better than that of Lexus. But Honda excels in one big area of automotive quality. I've said it before (and I know that some will disagree), and I'll say it again. No one in the industry assembles a vehicle better, with tighter precision of fewer defects, than Honda. Their plants, robots, and workers put a car together like Swiss watchmakers put together a Rolex.

Lexus excels in paint jobs, noise isolation, leather quality, and powertrain smoothness. BMW excels in steering/chassis/braking refinement. Subaru excels in an excellent boxer engine/AWD layout. Hyundal excels in a combination of quality, refinement, and value. Mercedes and Volvo both excel in safety engineering. And, Honda, conversely, excels in the precision of their vehicle assembly, though, like other manufacturers, they sometimes skimp on the quality of their interior trim.

I won't necessarily say, though, that the Insight dethroned the Prius on the first shot. The Insight has a rather jerky hybrid powertrain, a very cramped rear seat, and some cheap trim inside. I haven't seen or reviewed the new Prius in person yet, but it's on my review list.

Allen K

iTrader: (4)

Keep in mind though, they dethroned the last gen Prius in one shot. In the 2010 Prius reviews that I've read, it seems to be better than the Insight. I personally like Honda. I like the Civic, but not so much the new Accord (design wise). Their SUVs don't do much for me and I'm sad the S2k isn't getting a next gen.

IS350jet

I'm sorry, but that's just not true. Honda builds the best FWD layouts in the world when it comes to torque steer. Nobody, and I mean nobody, can conquer torque steer better than Honda. They are truly, FWD masters.

mmarshall

Well, that's partly because their VTEC in-line fours, particularly the smaller ones (the Acura RDX's turbo four being an exception), don't produce much torque, period, especially at lower RPMs. Virtually all of their power is HP in the upper-RPM range. You can't have torque steer without torque.

rogers2

MMarshall i'm going have to disagree with you on your last statement. Honda been making their engine that way for years and I doubt it's because of torque. That's just their style.
IMO Honda builds the best FWD layouts in the world when it comes to torque steer. This statement has been even been made by a number of magazine.