LexFather

I like the Equos a lot (lol Acura) and Hyundai better continue to hope the "won" trades where it is now and doesn't get strong like the yen did.

Och

iTrader: (3)

You are absolutely right about Hundai spending less on R&D and just copying competitions design and tech, but you are wrong about Toyota doing the same thing. Toyota, and Honda for that matters, were never copy cats, and even before they got to the top, they brough many revolutionary products, invented new technologies, and set the standard for small, efficient cars.

Hundai however did not introduce a single worlds first tech. Even their Genesis flagship does not have anything exclusive to Hundai. Even its styling cues are ripped off in bits and pieces from everything else. It is very difficult to have much respect for a company like that, and I certainly would not spend my money on their product.

FKL

I would hardly consider Honda or Toyota the grand innovators you speak of. Setting the bar for small cars? In what way?

Och

iTrader: (3)

Yes, setting the bar for small, efficient cars from the very start and to this day, and then to midsize family car, and then to luxury cars. Civic and Corolla ring a bell? Camry and Accord maybe? Love them or hate them, these are the most relevant cars in the world. And LS600h is the most advanced car in the world.

As far as innovations, Toyota and Honda have their fair share of them. Maybe not as much as MB that has been around for a lot longer, but a lot of modern tech is present thanks to them.

Huindai however has none.

LexFather

Honda/toyota has innovated tons. They just don't get too much kudos for it. The internet would rather focus on "they copy" like no one else does.

The LS 460 had 11 world firsts for example.

Och

iTrader: (3)

Thanks Mike.

Can anyone name a single innovation by Hundai?

gshb

yah. it won the 2009 north american car of the year. lawl

LexBob2

The Saturn Aura won North American Car Of The Year too..

mmarshall

Several of them, right off the bat.

1. The first QUALITY Korean-designed vehicles, after about 2000 or so.

2. The first auto company with the 10/100 and 5/60 overall warranties. Some others, since then, have more or less played copycat.

3. The first Korean vehicle manufacturer to set up a plant in the U.S.

4. The first manufacturer in the U.S. to sell luxury or near-luxury grade cars at regular family-sedan prices.

5. The first auto manufacturer to come up with a program to address car reposessions for economic reasons.

6. The only auto manufacturer (to my knowledge) that owns its own transport/container ships to make the overseas shipping process from factory to dealer easier and simpler.

7. The first company to make a vehicle that, (IMO, of course.....this is subjective) seriously drives and feels like a BMW without the blue-and-white propeller on the hood. I'm referring to the Genesis 3.8 Track Coupe (see my recent review).

8. The first Korean-designed vehicle to win the Pikes' Peak Hill Climb (a Hyundai Scoupe).

Lexmex

Going back to the original start of the thread, I don't know people who are downshifting to cars like the Genesis or other typical non-luxury sedans, but I do know a lot of people who are dumping newer luxury vehicles in favor of used luxury vehicle a few years old.

JKA.nyc

Numbers 1,3, and 8 don't really seem like innovations, rather Korean auto industry milestones. As for #4, if the Genesis counts as a luxury or near luxury sedan then it only seems logical and fair that the Maxima, Camry, Avalon, Accord etc etc be considered the same also no?

FKL

I don't agree at all. Market volume and sales has little to do with the overall or percieved innovative traits of a given product. The Honda Accord and Toyota Camry don't set many bars but sales and reliablity. As far as being at the forefront of available safety, performance, and refinement - they have never been. The same holds true for the Corolla and the Civic - nice cars, but the only lists they top are reliability and "value" - nothing to be said of performance, safety, build quality; again, I won't name drop. Just becuase they are some of the top selling cars in America doesn't mean they don't garner serious competition from arguably better built and superior driving vehicles worldwide. The Camry and Accord are nice enough cars - but they are not terribly enjoyable to drive, nor have they really offered any segment firsts. They cater well to American tastes, namely they are cheap to buy and drive. I know the hybrid argument is going to be thrown out sooner or later, but it was Audi who originally mass produced a hybrid electric vehicle, back in 1988, AND had the Prius-greenhouse shape long before Toyota did. Now, they did innovate the technology on a more massive scale, but it was Audi who spent hundreds of millions back in the 80s on the technological feasability of meshing a petrol engine with an electric motor.

This doesn't mean Japan has never innovated anything in their existance, but given their relatively small GDP, they have historically not been able to afford taking large gambles like the Americans once could, and the Germans do - this holds true for Honda in particular. These companies are not extremely conservative (and run by the accountants in many cases) for no reason at all - they have to be. Toyota is slowly changing, and their vehicles, as 1SICK mentioned, are starting to finally dictate segment-firsts. Honda...eh, not so much.

FKL

None of this is innovation in its definitive sense - I'm sorry to say this, becuase I vastly respect you mmarshal, but this is a bunch of hoopla. Innovation doesn't rest on being the "first" national company to sucessfully emulate Japense reliability, Mercedes- Styling, or Lexus fit/finish - It's actually innovating segment firsts. Owning a container ship? Yes, Korean Chaebols are have very diverse businesses (Samsung is a huge ship maker as well). Coming close to having a car that drives like a BMW? Case and point right there. Hyundai has innovated very little in terms of powertrain engineering, safety technology, convinience/luxury features, or packaging methods - It's all emulated from the Japanese and Europeans, almost entirely. That doesn't mean their vehicles aren't worth the light of day (hardly), it just is what it is. There's a distinct reason why an Audi A4 3.2 Quattro is going to cost thousands more than a Hyundai Genesis - It's a better car. Say whatever you want, the two are judged on a different scale. If the B8 A4 was released as the Hyundai Genesis, the world press world revolt, sales would drop off a cliff, and Audi would be in deep waters. That's the point - the Genesis is good, for a Hyundai. It's all about expectations, and some are simply held to higher standards than others.

LexFather

Off the top of my head
Honda-Vtec, first brand to make Navigation in 1981, first with aluminum car mass produced (NSX) (not a big Honda guy but I know that), SH-AWD is a first
Toyota-VVTi
Toyota-dual VVti (I'm really not a big Toyota guy but I am sure there are others)
Lexus-double hinged doors (SC), Electroluminicent gauges, Worlds first CVT that can be used indepent of electric/gas, Led healights, worlds first RWD/AWD sedan hybrids, RX 300 was the first luxury car based vehicle (now everyone does it), Lexus was the first to have their heads out their asses in regards to having a low cd or drag on a luxury car, there are others, I am tired.


Again, everyone innovates. The thing is when Germans innovate, they announce it at a stadium with Bette Midler and tell ever magazine possible. The Japanse innovate to INNOVATE, press be damned.

FKL

I disagree. German engineering is not perceived and respected so highly because of nothing; it's not a myth perpetuated by a bias automotive press - the innovation speaks for itself.

FYI, variable valve timing? Alfa Romeo. Aluminum spaceframe on the NSX is why the vehicle is regarded so highly by engineers worldwide - It truly was the epitome of Honda's innovative curve that dropped off a cliff in subsequent years. Audi has picked up where they left off. I just wish they would take gambles with cutting edge technology again, because whatever biases we may hold, we can all agree competition is a great, great thing.

And 1SICK, I didn't know anybody else was interested in CD Drag Coefficients but myself! Here's an interesting piece I read a few weeks ago:

http://realworldnumbers.wordpress.co...ot-a-constant/