I8ABMR

I saw a black Genesis sedan on 20's today and i have to say I thought it was a 5 series for a few minutes before I noticed. The car is a knock out. I love the Genesis flame under the feet of the current luxury makers

Och

iTrader: (3)

Mike, these are all great points, but I'm still waiting to find out about any technological innovations by Huindai.

Och

iTrader: (3)

FKL, I'm not trying to take credit away from Europeans, they do innovate, but so do the Japanese. They all have their fair share of innovations, and even when they copy each other, its fine by me, the way I see it is they all contribute and share between each other. But then you have companies like Huindai that do not contribute and leech of other's R&D, and take advantage of cheap labor to build cars that cost way less than competition.

Now as far as that Alfa Romeo variable valve timing tech and Audi hybrid tech, they must've been total flops, because noone ever heard of them. Honda and Toyota succeeded these onto the market and now everyone is copying them. And thats fine, let MB copy Toyotas hybrid, this way I dont have to feel bad when Toyota copies MB's TT V12.

And no matter how much you disagree, but Camry, Accord, Civic and Corolla are the best cars for the money out there. Well maybe the last generation of these dropped the ball, but since the 80ies to now they have simply been the best, and their sales numbers are so high because the cars are so well built, drive so well, reliable, comfortable, convenies, economical, - you name it. Yes, they aren't as much fun to drive as an AMG Mercedes, but they dont have the price tag of an AMG Merdeces. But if you compare say a Civic to Cavalier or Accord to Lumina, its just night and day difference.

Och

iTrader: (3)

German engineering is nice and peachy when it comes to advanced, expensive cars, but they seemingly forgot about your regular family cars. Germany doesn't have anything that competes with Civic/Accord/Corolla/Camry, except perhaps for VW Jetta and Passat, which until recent were total flops and laughing stock of the industry.

The G Man

lexus have always been the one to sit back and let someone else makes the mistakes, thats why their car is so reliable. lexus wait for the techology to muture before they intergrated into their cars.
When I think of innovation, I am think of things like Turbo charger, airbags, varible valve timing, direct injection, HID lights active suspensions or Vector all wheel drive. Hyundai being the 1st successful Korean car compant does not count as an inovation to me.
BTW, didnt the DeLorean came out with the Aluminum frame before the NSX.

mmarshall

No problem. I understand. What I listed was historically correct, but, as you guys note, it may not have been the meaning of the question of "technical" innovation, as you posted it.

I agree that Hyundais is generally not a leader in the development of new technology (at least not in the U.S. market), but they do build good cars in the sense of what I consider "good"......precise assembly/build quality, relability, comfort, and reasonably good performance. And one of their products, the new Genesis 3.8 Track coupe, IMO, is superb.....the one of most BMW-like driving products I've seen outside of the blue-and-white propeller.

JKA.nyc

what about the Prius and Toyota's hybrid technology? isn't that a Japanese innovation and a pretty big one at that?

LexFather

Thanks for the link. I am not saying Germans don't deserve their kudos what I am saying is the Japanese have many "firsts" and there is a misconception that they only copy. They do improve on a lot of ideas, there is no doubt but they innovate as well. Here is another;
]DENSO Develops World's First Passenger Vehicle Air Conditioning System Using an Ejector

"DENSO Corporation has developed the world's first passenger vehicle air conditioning system that uses ejector technology. The ejector, which is a small refrigerant injector, contributes to an overall reduction in power consumption. The system will be installed on the new Prius, introduced by Toyota this month."



I think Mike hit a few points, the warrenty and the new "lose a job, we got your back" thing. From a technological standpoint, I honestly cannot think of any I've read/heard of.

FKL

I gotta say Och, outside of North America and all the heavy perceptions that go along with it, the Golf (Jetta) and Passat have have been the benchmarks for the last decade. No one was laughing when Volkswagen took an Audi A4 and stretched the chassis back in 1997 - The car totally eclipsed everything else in the class not only for new levels of refinement and road manners, but standard safety features as well. It sent the Japanese scrambling back to the drawing boards, becuase from the end of 1998, the Golf and Passat beat every competing product from any country. Honda admitted back in 2003, the benchmark for their 7th generation Accord was the B5 Passat/A4. There's no debate from me that the Camry/Accord/Corolla/Civic are completely better than most trash the domestics created for years (The first Focus, in my opinion, was a huge suprise), but in the same vein, they don't do everything "the best". The Golf competes tit for tat with the Corolla in virtually every market around the globe but America. The Passat is the bonafide "Camry of Europe". I have to say as well, if you carefully examine a Civic or Corolla up against a Golf or Jetta, you can immediately tell why the VW has a higher price tag. Everything is just built to a higher level - There's more refinement, it drives like a more expensive car, road noise is hushed, the car feels weighty and planted. And over the years, the VWs have had many more safety features and airbags as standard equipment. They are now offering rear side airbags, nothing from Honda or Toyota in this class offers that (or the postcrash response system of unlocking doors, activating hazards, etc.). If you had any doubt, go open the door on a 'ssat - there's an umbrella holder with a drain in the door. Thoughful design, thoughful touches make a car that is more than just another Accord/Camry.

And as far as Hyundai copying and not doing much of anything "new", we agree. But it is my opinion that the Japanese have long followed that game plan. Sure, they had some sporadic innovations here and there over the years, but not anything that would surpass the domestic manufactures or Europeans. And my god, they set the bar for reliability following this book (and kicked the Germans off their soap boxes in the process), so more power to them.

LexFather

I loved (still do) the 97-03 or so Passat and Jetta of that time. I agree the Passat interior was head and shoulders better than anything in that class.

Och

iTrader: (3)

Look, obviously our opinions differ, and I'm not going to argue with your opinion about the VW being built to a higher standard than Hondas/Toyotas - because they might very well be. Afterall, mainstream Honda and Toyota are pretty plain and mainstream, but everything they do is logical. The VW on the other hand might have more features, but everything is *** backwards, ridiculously unreliable and obnoxiously difficult and expensive to work on. This is largely why VW has been a complete failure in the US.


I disagree. I still say that Japanese innovate more than their fair share, but perhaps they dont rush new technology into their cars until they have perfected it. Like you mentioned in one of your posts - Audi were the first ones with hybrid electric and Alfa was the first one with variable valve timing. But noone ever heard of these - probably because they were so *** backwards, and didnt work as intended. So basically Audi and Alfa failed at their attempts, and Toyota and Honda succeeded.

And as far as them setting the bar for reliability, thats also a part of innovation. To make advanced technology reliable, it takes tremendous engineering skills and a lot of research and development.

joe80

Samsung is new sony in terms of coming up with new ideas and innovation. I believe samsung passed sony 3 years ago. So I wouldn't count out koreans. they are learning and growing fast. it's scary. No one ever put samsung in a same breath to any japanese brands in the 90's. right now, samsung is basically killing sony in almost all categories. better marketing, better innovation, higher in sales, more profitable and etc.

hyundai is next. developing tau v8(voted top 10 engine in the world), world class diesel engine, bringing gen coupe ala 'modern day 240sx and etc. signs of greatness IMO. honestly, i think it's just a matter of time.

IS350jet

You know, I have to really respect you for the passion you have for Volkswagen. You're probably as passionate about VW as I am about Honda. Honestly, though, I'm not on these boards every single day acting as a Honda spokesperson. OK, VW's are great cars. That's your opinion. Are they better than Honda's? I don't think so and a lot of people here agree with me. At first glance, VW's might appear to have slightly better build quality but when you consider VW's relibility record, you can see it's not the case at all. Yes VW's are unreliable cars compared with anything in their class. I really can't think of a manufacturer that has more unreliable cars than VW, can you? You speak of Build quality and reliability as 2 different, unrelated things. Hardly. See, as obvious as it is to most people, you seem to miss the point that one of the BEST indicators of superior build quality is RELIABILITY. I'm sorry to say, even Hyundai has VW beat in that department.

The G Man

The modern hybrid technology was not invent in Japan, it was patented by TRW corp in Calif. in 1971.

Audi was the first to built the hybrid car in 1989 with the limited production of Audi 100 Avant Duo, almost 8 years before Toyota started making the Prius.

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/01...d-think-again/

Och

iTrader: (3)

Wow, I couldn't say it better myself. Great post.