Some Luxury Buyers Downshift to Hyundai Genesis
05-20-09, 09:20 AM
#196
Lexus Fanatic
You know, I have to really respect you for the passion you have for Volkswagen. You're probably as passionate about VW as I am about Honda. Honestly, though, I'm not on these boards every single day acting as a Honda spokesperson. OK, VW's are great cars. That's your opinion. Are they better than Honda's? I don't think so and a lot of people here agree with me. At first glance, VW's might appear to have slightly better build quality but when you consider VW's relibility record, you can see it's not the case at all. Yes VW's are unreliable cars compared with anything in their class. I really can't think of a manufacturer that has more unreliable cars than VW, can you? You speak of Build quality and reliability as 2 different, unrelated things. Hardly. See, as obvious as it is to most people, you seem to miss the point that one of the BEST indicators of superior build quality is RELIABILITY. I'm sorry to say, even Hyundai has VW beat in that department.
I really can't think of a manufacturer that has more unreliable cars than VW, can you?
05-22-09, 10:19 PM
#197
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Hyundai/Kia's LPG hybrid - and that's w/ the more advanced lithium polymer batteries.
Also, while not "new" per se in terms of a feature, Hyundai appears to have, as they say, "built a better mousetrap."
Designed for transverse engine applications in passenger cars and SUVs, the new compact transaxle puts Hyundai into an elite class of auto manufacturers who have designed their own six-speed automatic (after Toyota and a GM/Ford joint venture), demonstrating Hyundai's advanced powertrain engineering capabilities.
"The strength of our design is its completely unique layout, which makes it smaller, more compact and lighter than any other six-speed on the market today," said Hong-Min Kim, the project manager of the transaxle at Hyundai R&D Centre. In fact, the design is so unique and so advanced, Hyundai has applied for nearly 300 patents related to the technology.
Developed over a four-year period, this new six-speed automatic gearbox offers numerous technical merits. Despite the extra gear, it is 12kg lighter than the five-speed it replaces. It is also 41mm shorter and considerably simpler having 62 fewer parts, which is a key to increased durability and lower cost.
Another example of engineering ingenuity is to be found in the design of the hydraulic pressure control unit. There are always slight manufacturing deviations from one solenoid valve to the next, which cause fluctuation in the hydraulic pressure and affect shift precision and quality. To rectify this, the transaxle features cleverly integrated adjustment screws in the valves which enable each of the eight valves to be calibrated at the factory.
This novel feature ensures stable hydraulic pressure at any shift point, which facilitates a high degree of precision and control needed to deliver ultra-fast, smooth and precise shifts throughout the engine speed range.
"The strength of our design is its completely unique layout, which makes it smaller, more compact and lighter than any other six-speed on the market today," said Hong-Min Kim, the project manager of the transaxle at Hyundai R&D Centre. In fact, the design is so unique and so advanced, Hyundai has applied for nearly 300 patents related to the technology.
Developed over a four-year period, this new six-speed automatic gearbox offers numerous technical merits. Despite the extra gear, it is 12kg lighter than the five-speed it replaces. It is also 41mm shorter and considerably simpler having 62 fewer parts, which is a key to increased durability and lower cost.
Another example of engineering ingenuity is to be found in the design of the hydraulic pressure control unit. There are always slight manufacturing deviations from one solenoid valve to the next, which cause fluctuation in the hydraulic pressure and affect shift precision and quality. To rectify this, the transaxle features cleverly integrated adjustment screws in the valves which enable each of the eight valves to be calibrated at the factory.
This novel feature ensures stable hydraulic pressure at any shift point, which facilitates a high degree of precision and control needed to deliver ultra-fast, smooth and precise shifts throughout the engine speed range.
Now, Hyundai is just starting to go beyond catching up to the competition and is where Toyota was during the mid-1980s (when Toyota started to move upmarket).
Not even close in that dept. (Auto Bild, as well as American publications, will attest to that).
Hyundai. like many Asian car manufacturers can be competitive because they spend less money on R&D. What they are doing is taking a competitor's car and copying their design and technology. Toyota have been doing that for years until they got to the top, once a car company is near the top, they can no longer do that, buyers will start to expect innovative design and technology from the company. This is when more money have to be invested in R&D. Until Hyundai get pass that stage, it is not a success yet.
Hyundai is the only major auto manufacturer other than BMW to spend the equivalent of 5% of annual sales on R&D and w/ about $3 billion spent on R&D per year (BMW spends about $4 billion a year).
You are absolutely right about Hundai spending less on R&D and just copying competitions design and tech, but you are wrong about Toyota doing the same thing. Toyota, and Honda for that matters, were never copy cats, and even before they got to the top, they brough many revolutionary products, invented new technologies, and set the standard for small, efficient cars.
Hundai however did not introduce a single worlds first tech. Even their Genesis flagship does not have anything exclusive to Hundai. Even its styling cues are ripped off in bits and pieces from everything else. It is very difficult to have much respect for a company like that, and I certainly would not spend my money on their product.
Or what about Infiniti/Nissan which made BMW's Hofmeister the centerpoint to its most successful designs/models (the G35/37 and Altima) or Honda ripping off cues allover for the Accord?
Not to mention that earlier models of Lexus, Infiniti and Acura all basically ripped off grilles from European or American luxury makes w/ vertically or horizontally slatted grilles (ooh, how original!).
The Genesis doesn't even sport Hundai name anywhere on the car. The front grille has some weird emblem, and the back has Hundai emblem and Genesis name, but it doesn't say Hundai anywhere. Its obvious the marketers of this car are ashamed of the Hundai name and wont slap it on the car.
Last edited by YEH; 05-22-09 at 10:53 PM.
05-22-09, 10:57 PM
#198
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Numbers 1,3, and 8 don't really seem like innovations, rather Korean auto industry milestones. As for #4, if the Genesis counts as a luxury or near luxury sedan then it only seems logical and fair that the Maxima, Camry, Avalon, Accord etc etc be considered the same also no?
05-23-09, 01:52 AM
#199
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You know, I have to really respect you for the passion you have for Volkswagen. You're probably as passionate about VW as I am about Honda. Honestly, though, I'm not on these boards every single day acting as a Honda spokesperson. OK, VW's are great cars. That's your opinion. Are they better than Honda's? I don't think so and a lot of people here agree with me. At first glance, VW's might appear to have slightly better build quality but when you consider VW's relibility record, you can see it's not the case at all. Yes VW's are unreliable cars compared with anything in their class. I really can't think of a manufacturer that has more unreliable cars than VW, can you? You speak of Build quality and reliability as 2 different, unrelated things. Hardly. See, as obvious as it is to most people, you seem to miss the point that one of the BEST indicators of superior build quality is RELIABILITY. I'm sorry to say, even Hyundai has VW beat in that department.
Also, I don't find build quality and reliability to be intrinsically linked, as mmmarshall loves to tout. A high end German executive luxury sedan does not have build quality that is poorer than that of a Honda Civic simply because its more complex systems and design processes may require more money to maintain down the line. Of course, you two evidently see build quality as nothing more than whatever JD Power tells you in a survey, but I generally gauge the matter on the physical way the car is built - attention to detail, which controls are lighted, how well the seats are covered, how well the doors shut - After owning the Passat, it's very easy to say build quality is in fact superior to that of the Hondas. When you start getting down to little things like the door strikers, the door hinges, the underbody - everything is done in a much more substantial manner. I never realized these things until I bought one. But when you're driving down the road, you can feel it - the car just rides like a more expensive car, the brakes are better, it handles better - the double-wishbone in the Accords is great, but it doesn't feel quite as posh as the Passat, you really just need to drive it. It drives and feels like the Audi it really is (miss this in the newer one). Also, the mutli-link front suspension totally eliminates any torque steer, a big problem in both Accords. Don't get me wrong, I bought those two Hondas for a reason, and I can't really complain, they are great cars (love the Honda Navigation system, btw), but I have to give credit where it's due. I think there's a very real reason why a comprable VW costs thousands more than a Honda, reliability be damned.
Last edited by FKL; 05-23-09 at 01:58 AM.
05-23-09, 06:45 AM
#200
Pole Position
05-23-09, 07:05 AM
#201
Also, while not "new" per se in terms of a feature, Hyundai appears to have, as they say, "built a better mousetrap."
http://www.carpages.co.uk/hyundai/hyundai-23-12-08.asp
Now, Hyundai is just starting to go beyond catching up to the competition and is where Toyota was during the mid-1980s (when Toyota started to move upmarket).
http://www.carpages.co.uk/hyundai/hyundai-23-12-08.asp
Now, Hyundai is just starting to go beyond catching up to the competition and is where Toyota was during the mid-1980s (when Toyota started to move upmarket).
Toyota and Honda spend more on R&D than Mercedes, BMW or VW (Toyota spends about double that of Mercedes or BMW.)
Hyundai is the only major auto manufacturer other than BMW to spend the equivalent of 5% of annual sales on R&D and w/ about $3 billion spent on R&D per year (BMW spends about $4 billion a year).
Wow, whos in denial here? LS430 a virtual clone of the S class? I'm sorry but the LS430 is the evolution of LS400. More on that later.
Let me remind you of something. This is what the S class looked like in 1989 when LS400 hit the market.
It was an antiquated design from the 70ies. I know there are a lot of W126 enthusiasts on this board, I'm sorry guys, I don't mean to offend you, but I find this design ugly and antiquated. They looked terrible inside and out. Just look at these bumpers, door handles, headlights, mouldings.
They also had pretty antiquated engines - a lot of their engines were versions of old carbuerated engines modified with electronic injection. It had an antiquated steering system, and a poor execution of IRS.
And then the LS400 launched in 1989, featuring a modern high tech DOHC V8, rack and pinion steering, multilink IRS, luminous gauges, and it looked tons more modern on the inside and outside.
I simply fail to see what styling cues Lexus copied from the ugly W126. If anything, the LS400 was an evolution of Toyota's excellent Cressida. See most of those who claim that Lexus copies S class, usually make that claim based on LS400 vs W140, without realizing that W140 actually came out 3 years after the first LS400. And yes, it does have some of LS400's styling cues. So, who copied who????
Yes, I have facts. They do not innovate, they copy cat, they rely on cheap labor to undercut competition. And the lack of the emblem on the Genesis grille just proves they are embarassed of themselves.
05-23-09, 07:21 AM
#202
Lexus Fanatic
Maybe slightly off-topic, but, for the record, I think the 20-year-old Mercedes S-Class and Lexus LS designs of 1989-1990 both look far better than their versions today. And a number of their components also showed better solidness and build quality back then, especially with the Mercedes. But, there is no doubt, though, that today's LS represents perhaps the ultimate in refinement, short of the $200,000 mark.
05-23-09, 07:38 AM
#203
Maybe slightly off-topic, but, for the record, I think the 20-year-old Mercedes S-Class and Lexus LS designs of 1989-1990 both look far better than their versions today. And a number of their components also showed better solidness and build quality back then, especially with the Mercedes. But, there is no doubt, though, that today's LS represents perhaps the ultimate in refinement, short of the $200,000 mark.
As far as the S class, my favorite design is W140. It just looks awesome. The W220 is also good looking, but just doesnt stand out quite like the W140. And I hate the new W221 S class, I don't find it classy or elegant at all, in fact I find it too flashy, bling bling, and tacky. As far as solidness of the S class, I dont have much experience with them, but my parents W220 S500 with less than 50k on the clock has a lot of loose interior panels. Not flimzy or squeaking, literally loose.
Out of all luxury flagships today, I like the Audi A8L the best. They did a great job designing a car that is classy and elegant, and "in your face" at the same time.
05-23-09, 08:51 AM
#204
Lexus Champion
Those side by side pics of the 1990 LS400 to the 89 S class are pretty dramatic. The LS looks far nicer and more modern.
Edit:
After doing some more reading it appears that body style of S class came out in late 1979 calendar year and was replaced in the 1990 calendar year. That's a LONG life cycle. So I guess to the S class' credit while they should be somewhat ashamed having the same car design for almost 11 years, when the LS400 came out, Lexus did have a 10 year jump on them in engineering and aesthetics. The S class that came out about a year after the LS400 came out looks far more modern... I'd go so far as to say a fair bit better and more modern looking on the outside than the 1990 LS400. Inside is more of a tie depending on if you prefer German or Japanese looking luxury interior designs (I tend to prefer Japanese, though there are exceptions, like some Audi interiors, and some Infiniti interiors).
Edit:
After doing some more reading it appears that body style of S class came out in late 1979 calendar year and was replaced in the 1990 calendar year. That's a LONG life cycle. So I guess to the S class' credit while they should be somewhat ashamed having the same car design for almost 11 years, when the LS400 came out, Lexus did have a 10 year jump on them in engineering and aesthetics. The S class that came out about a year after the LS400 came out looks far more modern... I'd go so far as to say a fair bit better and more modern looking on the outside than the 1990 LS400. Inside is more of a tie depending on if you prefer German or Japanese looking luxury interior designs (I tend to prefer Japanese, though there are exceptions, like some Audi interiors, and some Infiniti interiors).
Last edited by Threxx; 05-23-09 at 08:56 AM.
05-23-09, 12:01 PM
#205
Those side by side pics of the 1990 LS400 to the 89 S class are pretty dramatic. The LS looks far nicer and more modern.
Edit:
After doing some more reading it appears that body style of S class came out in late 1979 calendar year and was replaced in the 1990 calendar year. That's a LONG life cycle. So I guess to the S class' credit while they should be somewhat ashamed having the same car design for almost 11 years, when the LS400 came out, Lexus did have a 10 year jump on them in engineering and aesthetics. The S class that came out about a year after the LS400 came out looks far more modern... I'd go so far as to say a fair bit better and more modern looking on the outside than the 1990 LS400. Inside is more of a tie depending on if you prefer German or Japanese looking luxury interior designs (I tend to prefer Japanese, though there are exceptions, like some Audi interiors, and some Infiniti interiors).
Edit:
After doing some more reading it appears that body style of S class came out in late 1979 calendar year and was replaced in the 1990 calendar year. That's a LONG life cycle. So I guess to the S class' credit while they should be somewhat ashamed having the same car design for almost 11 years, when the LS400 came out, Lexus did have a 10 year jump on them in engineering and aesthetics. The S class that came out about a year after the LS400 came out looks far more modern... I'd go so far as to say a fair bit better and more modern looking on the outside than the 1990 LS400. Inside is more of a tie depending on if you prefer German or Japanese looking luxury interior designs (I tend to prefer Japanese, though there are exceptions, like some Audi interiors, and some Infiniti interiors).
05-23-09, 12:18 PM
#206
Lexus Champion
05-23-09, 06:41 PM
#207
Now, just to make it clear, my post is not to compare LS400 to S class, but simply to prove that Lexus did not copy the S class in any shape or form.
With that being said, the W140 also had a long model run. It was produced since 91 until 1999, when it was replaced by W220 S class. During that time the LS evolved twice. In 1994 all new LS came out as 1995 model, and it was a huge improvement over the 1st gen, and in 1997 a "refreshed" LS400 came out as 1998 model, but in fact that refreshed model had more changes over the 95-97 than 95-97 had over 90-94. The exterior and interior were changed quite a bit, it received a 300hp VVTi engine, HID headlamps, and basically surpassed comparable W140 s-class. Note the keyword comparable, meaning short wheelbase S420-500. The LS still couldnt match the features of the LWB models or the V12 engine of S600. It would be fair to also note that it used to cost less than half of what S600 used cost.
When the W220 launched in 2000 and LS430 in 2001, the battle was now even closer. The LS still didn't have a V12 or LWB, but it had a lot of features available only on LWB cars, such as massaging and ajustable rear seats, rear controls, etc. And its built quality, comfort, ride, reliability and refinement are simply unmatched.
Unfortunately Lexus has dropped the ball with the LS460. Yes it is now available with more features than ever, has a LWB option, AWD, and even the super advanced hybrid. But its build quality isn't as good as LS430, it looks like a camry, and quite frankly the 4.6 NA V8 is no match to the 5.5 V8 in the new S class or the TT V8 in the new 7 series. And as good as the LS600h is, its engine performance is laughable compared to the TT V12 in the S600.
05-23-09, 11:58 PM
#209
Lexus Fanatic
man. what they did with the Equine (horse) is amazing.
First, the designers formed a think tank.
they asked- How can we fool people into thinking our ugly horse is a lexus LS?
one bright young korean dude said, let's just take the exact LS, draw a few lines, stretch the back windows, and abracadabrakazam! No shame in our game.
(note identical shape)
oh, one more thing....... if you're gonna copy the design, at least make the rear door handles not look like they're lower than the front. that thing looks lopsided
First, the designers formed a think tank.
they asked- How can we fool people into thinking our ugly horse is a lexus LS?
one bright young korean dude said, let's just take the exact LS, draw a few lines, stretch the back windows, and abracadabrakazam! No shame in our game.
(note identical shape)
oh, one more thing....... if you're gonna copy the design, at least make the rear door handles not look like they're lower than the front. that thing looks lopsided
05-24-09, 10:30 AM
#210
As much as I hate to admit it, even I have been eyeing the Genesis with a new found respect and I must say that the car IS quite an eye catcher. Though I haven't driven one yet, may consider adding one as my next car. Still keeping the 1LS tho. Afterall I AM still a Lexus nut at heart.