Some Luxury Buyers Downshift to Hyundai Genesis
04-18-09, 04:20 PM
#92
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04-18-09, 05:07 PM
#93
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This new Genesis is outstanding. I saw the new coupe and it looked awesome. What hyundai is actually doing is the begining of an emerging brand. Eventually you will see Hyundai/KIA/Genesis...just like Toyota/Scion/Lexus....or others.
Eventually the Genesis name will actually be a brand and not just a model.
Eventually the Genesis name will actually be a brand and not just a model.
04-18-09, 06:21 PM
#95
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I went to the car show today and got to look at the Genesis the sad part is when I sat in the drivers seat I sat there with my head bent over. I had no head room at all. I darn near had to be extricated bend my head way over and down to get out. They totally forgot headroom in it and I am just over 6 foot tall.
lexus gs front headroom: 37.8
http://www.lexus.com/models/GS/detai.../%20Dimensions
lexus ls front headroom: 38.0
http://www.lexus.com/models/LS/detai.../%20Dimensions
lexus lx570 (massive SUV) front headroom: 38.3
http://www.lexus.com/models/LX/detai.../%20Dimensions
hyundai genesis front headroom: 40.4
http://www.leftlanenews.com/hyundai-...specifications
either you had the seat back upright, you were sitting on something, or the seat WAS adjusted way higher than normal, because as you can see the genesis has more headroom than lexus GS or LS.
04-20-09, 11:42 PM
#97
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As for the GenCoupe, I agree that the quality of the materials isn't the greatest (but the design is handsome), but what do you expect for a model that starts at $22k?
Otoh, the G35 had a pretty chinzy interior for a couple of years and Infiniti was charging over $30k.
I agree, maybe another 3 to 5 years or so. What Hyundai really need is a luxury divsion. How many of you would buy a Toyota GS450h or a Toyota LS460. Branding is sometimes more inportant than the product itself. How many of these rich folks are willing to wait in line at the Hyundai dealer with the Kia owners?
Hyundai would not only need the flagship Equus, but also an entry level (supposedly, there is a 3 Series fighter in the works) model as well as at least one crossover/SUV in order to justify the investment.
This whole the Genesis needs a fancy different badge or luxury division in order for me to like it or purchase it or justify spending a little extra money on is kind of sad with how people mostly in the US need that fancy badge to convince them to spend extra and the badge seems even more important then the actual car.
If Hyundai sells the Genesis sedan under a luxury nameplate then you can tack on about 10K or more to the price of the exact same car because that is exactly what is going to happen and the Genesis will not seem as great a deal/car anymore at those prices even if it has a nicer badge. I am certainly not one of those people who wants to pay 10K-20K extra for the same exact car just because of the badge on the back and a nicer dealership, I choose cars to where I hope I spend as little time possible at the dealership anyway and I am not really into paying extra just to wait in a fancier dealership.
Now if Hyundai were to sell a 70-90K ultra lux sedan/coupe or exotic sports
car then a higher end brand would be more justified at those prices but I don't really see the need for a higher end brand to sell sedans in the 30's and 40's and a sporty coupe in the 20's to low 30's and those prices for the same exact car are going to go up significantly if they are sold under a nicer brand. Even if Hyundai started a upscale brand for expensive lux cars and sports cars they would still have trouble selling them at first with this whole brand/image obsession no matter how good they were.
If Hyundai sells the Genesis sedan under a luxury nameplate then you can tack on about 10K or more to the price of the exact same car because that is exactly what is going to happen and the Genesis will not seem as great a deal/car anymore at those prices even if it has a nicer badge. I am certainly not one of those people who wants to pay 10K-20K extra for the same exact car just because of the badge on the back and a nicer dealership, I choose cars to where I hope I spend as little time possible at the dealership anyway and I am not really into paying extra just to wait in a fancier dealership.
Now if Hyundai were to sell a 70-90K ultra lux sedan/coupe or exotic sports
car then a higher end brand would be more justified at those prices but I don't really see the need for a higher end brand to sell sedans in the 30's and 40's and a sporty coupe in the 20's to low 30's and those prices for the same exact car are going to go up significantly if they are sold under a nicer brand. Even if Hyundai started a upscale brand for expensive lux cars and sports cars they would still have trouble selling them at first with this whole brand/image obsession no matter how good they were.
Also, the condition wasn't right for a prestige brand from Hyundai - Hyundai needs to lift its image closer to Toyota/Honda before launching a luxury-make and the Genesis plays a role in that (as well as the next gen Sonata, etc.).
When I think of a Hyundai, I still can picture the Hyundai Excel from years ago I had in college. Hyundai need to get rid of that image and start over with a different brand name for the luxury division. If they do not , that means Hyundai is either not serious about competing in the luxury car market or they have already given up.
But remember, what you think of Hyundai will not necessarily be what the younger generation thinks.
There are still people in their 70s who would never think of buying a Japanese auto due to what they saw during the 1960s-early 1970s, just as there are those who scoff at the thought of a luxury VW - but younger folk who have experienced something diff. have no problem spending $65k on a Toyota Land Cruiser or close to $40k on a VW Passat CC.
To know how good of a job Hyundai is doing in terms of image and perception, we may have to ask our kids, or the current generation HS age buyers. It will take years for Hyundai to gain their base loyal buyers of their higher end cars. We know the Hyundai of the past, so it may be hard for us to let go. My son who will be 6, or my nieces and nephews don't have a clue what cars were out in the late 80s to mid 90s and they only know Hyundai today. When I was in HS in the late 80s I wouldn't be caught dead in a rebadged Lexus ES250 or an old mans car LS400. Today I drive a GS430. Perceptions change over time, and its going to take more than the first offering from Hyundai with the Genesis to convince people. I think the Genesis is one heck of a great car for a first attempted and it opened my eyes.
Tho if Hyundai wants to offer more luxury models, esp. higher end vehicles, it would be prudent for Hyundai to offer a separate lux nameplate due to the peculiarities of the US auto market.
Can't really compare the domestics to imports - in the same vein the M, the GS, etc. look comparatively worse.
Last edited by YEH; 04-20-09 at 11:57 PM.
04-21-09, 12:30 AM
#98
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Aside from the fact that Infiniti and Acura don't exist in Japan, as did Lexus until a few years ago, the Toyota Crown Majesta was classed even higher than the Toyota Celsior (aka the LS) and Japanese royal family ride in a "lowly" Toyota instead of a Lexus (the Toyota Century Royal).
I also seem to recall many posters here stating that it was silly to think that the Land Cruiser wasn't a luxury vehicle simply b/c it was a Toyota (esp. considering that it carries a $65k price-tag) and that the Lexus LX, basically a rebadged Land Cruiser, was "luxury" simply b/c it had a different nameplate.
In addition, Mercedes manufactures the econobox A and B Classes - are they "luxury" vehicles simply b/c they carry the Mercedes nameplate?
Also, no one is arguing that the US market, for optimal sales and success, requires a luxury nameplate, but automakers have been able to have successes w/ one 'halo" model (Chevy w/ the Corvette, VW w/ the Passat CC, likely Nissan w/ the GT-R, etc.) and it just simply wasn't prudent for Hyundai to invest a billion and a half to start a new prestige nameplate based on just the Genesis sedan and coupe.
in a world where badge/branding didn't matter there would be no need for any differentiation between anything from clothes to food to electronics. therefore there would be no need for different brands and everything would be produced by one producer and we'd all consume the exact same things, and therefore there would be no need for people to be paid differently if we bought all the exact same things priced the same and so on and so forth and all this sounds a little like communism doesn't it?
For instance, a few decades ago, Rolex and Omega were seen as being much closer whereby the Rolex Submariner and the Omega Seamaster were not that different in price (in terms of quality, the Sub is better in some respects and the Seamaster in others - so it's basically a draw).
Nowadays, due to better marketing and a strict price control, the Sub is close to being twice as much as the Seamaster.
Along the same lines, most people (aside from watch aficianados) would ooh and aah at a Rolex watch and draw blank stares at a Patek Philippe, Jaeger-LeCoultre or a Vacheron Constantin.
Along the same lines most people (due to the all the $$ spent on marketing) would ooh and aah at a Bose sound system, while thinking that JBL was just run of the mill - nevermind that pretty much all audiophiles would scoff at a Bose system and wouldn't mind having the top of the line JBL floorstanders (which run $20k) in their listening room.
04-21-09, 04:52 AM
#99
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In my opinion, and, I'm sure to many members, here, Hyundai has made amazing strides in changing their brand perception. I would go as far to say that, nearly no other car company in existence today, did what Hyundai has done for their brand perception. Think about this. Club Lexus is an enthusiasts site for Lexus owners. Who would have thought that Hyundai could have changed the perceptions of a bunch of discerning Lexus owners? That says a lot. When I see where they were 25 years ago, and where they are today, *NO* other car company has impressed me more than Hyundai.
04-21-09, 08:20 AM
#100
Lexus Test Driver
04-21-09, 08:41 AM
#101
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In my opinion, and, I'm sure to many members, here, Hyundai has made amazing strides in changing their brand perception. I would go as far to say that, nearly no other car company in existence today, did what Hyundai has done for their brand perception. Think about this. Club Lexus is an enthusiasts site for Lexus owners. Who would have thought that Hyundai could have changed the perceptions of a bunch of discerning Lexus owners? That says a lot. When I see where they were 25 years ago, and where they are today, *NO* other car company has impressed me more than Hyundai.
The Genesis sedan sales goal is between 20k a year with them expecting to sell 30k coupes a year, its not a very high volume car. Sales have been around 1k-1,500 a month so they are close. Consumers don't want to pay a premium for an Acura as the RL has flopped since 1996.
Hyundai is doing a better job of selling a "flagship" than Acura ever will. lol.
04-21-09, 11:17 AM
#102
Lexus Test Driver
The RL is a victim of Acura's terrible marketing department. The RL itself is a great car, very well put together and using nice material. The design have be dated for years and Acura havent really done much to it with except maybe a face lift. The V6 engine is powerful enough, but it should have an optional V8 like Genesis. Overall, I am pretty disappointed at all the current Acuras.
04-21-09, 11:59 AM
#103
Lexus Fanatic
[QUOTE=YEH;4454615]
Interesting, considering the 2009 Sonata has a better interior than the Camry.
[QUOTE]
Yes, on the surface, the interior LOOKS better than the Camry's (and, to an extent, it IS better), but compared to the 2008 Sonata you can (or I could, at least) detect some thinner, cheaper materials and trim.
As I said in my review of 3.8L Track model a while ago, it was obvious that Hyundai foresook some money inside the car to produce a superb powertrain and chassis......virtually the equal of many BMWs I've driven.
That's where I disagree. Take a look at what a BMW or Mercedes V-12 sedan costs, and compare it to what VW was asking for an equivalent Phaeton, and you'd save probably 30-40K.....even more in some cases.
What was its downfall was not the price, but potential V-12 buyers acting like this, and not going into VW showrooms:
Interesting, considering the 2009 Sonata has a better interior than the Camry.
[QUOTE]
Yes, on the surface, the interior LOOKS better than the Camry's (and, to an extent, it IS better), but compared to the 2008 Sonata you can (or I could, at least) detect some thinner, cheaper materials and trim.
As for the GenCoupe, I agree that the quality of the materials isn't the greatest (but the design is handsome), but what do you expect for a model that starts at $22k?
The Phaeton starting at $66,700 and going over $100k was no "bargain "- that was its downfall.
What was its downfall was not the price, but potential V-12 buyers acting like this, and not going into VW showrooms:
04-21-09, 12:17 PM
#104
Lexus Champion
My 16 year old nephew thinks the Genesis Coupe is cool. That means that Hyundai's marketing is doing something right.
Hyundai has a lot of cards stacked against it and is doing a pretty good job of digging themselves out of the hole they sank into. A applaud them for doing such a good job and really taking necessary risks to try to differentiate themselves from their past.
Hyundai has a lot of cards stacked against it and is doing a pretty good job of digging themselves out of the hole they sank into. A applaud them for doing such a good job and really taking necessary risks to try to differentiate themselves from their past.
04-21-09, 12:24 PM
#105
Lexus Fanatic
[QUOTE=mmarshall;4456088]
That's where I disagree. Take a look at what a BMW or Mercedes V-12 sedan costs, and compare it to what VW was asking for an equivalent Phaeton, and you'd save probably 30-40K.....even more in some cases.
What was its downfall was not the price, but potential V-12 buyers acting like this, and not going into VW showrooms:
Even if I somewhat agree, since very few of us shop in that league it really doesn't matter. The $30-$40K savings is lost in depreciation in 3 years on the VW.
Financially strong 7-series and S-class buyers weren't cross-shopping VW and still are not today.
That's where I disagree. Take a look at what a BMW or Mercedes V-12 sedan costs, and compare it to what VW was asking for an equivalent Phaeton, and you'd save probably 30-40K.....even more in some cases.
What was its downfall was not the price, but potential V-12 buyers acting like this, and not going into VW showrooms:
Financially strong 7-series and S-class buyers weren't cross-shopping VW and still are not today.