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Some Luxury Buyers Downshift to Hyundai Genesis

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Old 04-23-09, 11:12 AM
  #121  
JKA.nyc
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Again? Seriously?? Okay

Originally Posted by YEH
Uhh, I seem to recall the "debate" was over whether the Genesis was a "luxury" vehicle, not whether it was more prudent to have a separate luxury nameplate for the US market.

Aside from the fact that Infiniti and Acura don't exist in Japan, as did Lexus until a few years ago, the Toyota Crown Majesta was classed even higher than the Toyota Celsior (aka the LS) and Japanese royal family ride in a "lowly" Toyota instead of a Lexus (the Toyota Century Royal).

I also seem to recall many posters here stating that it was silly to think that the Land Cruiser wasn't a luxury vehicle simply b/c it was a Toyota (esp. considering that it carries a $65k price-tag) and that the Lexus LX, basically a rebadged Land Cruiser, was "luxury" simply b/c it had a different nameplate.
Okay, but I did mention the importance of brand, as an essential element of what makes a luxury nameplate. Silly or not, FACT is BRAND matters when it comes to luxury whether you or anyone else here likes it or not its the plain old truth.

Originally Posted by YEH
It's not imaginary in Asia or Europe and again, the nameplate has little bearing on the actual quality/merits of the product.

Also, no one is arguing that the US market, for optimal sales and success, requires a luxury nameplate, but automakers have been able to have successes w/ one 'halo" model (Chevy w/ the Corvette, VW w/ the Passat CC, likely Nissan w/ the GT-R, etc.) and it just simply wasn't prudent for Hyundai to invest a billion and a half to start a new prestige nameplate based on just the Genesis sedan and coupe.
Obviously you don't need a luxury nameplate as evidenced by Hyundai's current success, but we're talking about luxury makes here aren't we?

Asia and Europe are their home markets which is why MB/BMW/Hyundai etc etc are able to successfully be full line autos. You keep bringing this up when I'm not referring to Asia or Europe so I'm not exactly seeing what relevance it's supposed to have. What is it you are trying to point out? And it's funny that you should mention Europe isn't as concerned with image considering it's the home of overpriced designer merchandise.


Why do you think that MB doesn't bring over there econoboxes or commercial vehicles here?? Cuz it would ruin there image they've worked so hard to build here. Prudent or not if Hyundai wants to be taken seriously as a luxury contender they're going to need a nameplate otherwise they're just going to be a Korean Toyota at the very best here.
It's called INVESTING in your business.

Originally Posted by YEH
Branding often has little to do w/ the actual quality of the product (it's amazing what marketing can do).
Why are you telling me this? Haven't I said this already??? Regardless of quality BRAND matters for the luxury market which is why designer products get marked up like 1000%. Just like regardless of how good a vehicle the genesis is it WILL not be accepted by the mainstream as a luxury vehicle until it goes under a separate nameplate because without that nameplate Hyundai is missing about 50% of its marketing plan.


And in regards to our last convo, even if Costco sells jewelery that expensive, who the hell is going to buy a 70k diamond necklace from COSTCO????? I'm just guessing here, but I'm assuming they're selling those items on consignment. Obviously an item like that is luxury, but you stretching your analogy quite a bit.
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Old 04-23-09, 01:52 PM
  #122  
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Originally Posted by 1SICKLEX
Exactly. That is why Benz/BMW/Lexus etc want to get into China/Asia so BADLY, b/c of their images of success elsewhere that people want to be associated with. There continues to be a growing class of buyers there that are more than willing to pay the $$$$$$$ for what they regard as "better".

The same is going on in Russia.

Back to Asia, lets not forget they get long wheelbase 5/A6 etc there as well to "fit" that class from a prestige/price standpoint.
Otoh, VW is the leading manufacturer in China while it has a hard time gaining market share in the US.

Likewise, Audi struggles against BMW and Mercedes in the US while it is the best-selling brand of the 3 in Germany.


Originally Posted by JKA.nyc
Okay, but I did mention the importance of brand, as an essential element of what makes a luxury nameplate. Silly or not, FACT is BRAND matters when it comes to luxury whether you or anyone else here likes it or not its the plain old truth.
No one is disputing that brand is impt., esp. for the US auto market - I'm just disagreeing w/ your assertions that a product from a "lesser brand" can't be equal to a luxury brand in quality or that brand name alone equates "luxury."

Originally Posted by JKA.nyc
And in regards to our last convo, even if Costco sells jewelery that expensive, who the hell is going to buy a 70k diamond necklace from COSTCO????? I'm just guessing here, but I'm assuming they're selling those items on consignment. Obviously an item like that is luxury, but you stretching your analogy quite a bit.
Uhh, people who are smart enough not to pay the exorbitant mark-up for a similar thing just b/c it comes in a blue box (it's not like the quality of the diamonds is any better).

And no, it's not on consignment.

Last edited by YEH; 04-23-09 at 01:55 PM.
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Old 04-23-09, 07:23 PM
  #123  
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Originally Posted by YEH
No one is disputing that brand is impt., esp. for the US auto market - I'm just disagreeing w/ your assertions that a product from a "lesser brand" can't be equal to a luxury brand in quality or that brand name alone equates "luxury."



Uhh, people who are smart enough not to pay the exorbitant mark-up for a similar thing just b/c it comes in a blue box (it's not like the quality of the diamonds is any better).

And no, it's not on consignment.
You misunderstand me, I never meant that a product from a "lesser brand" can't be equal to a luxury brand in quality. And while brand name alone doesn't equate luxury, neither does quality alone, hence my reasoning, Hyundai /= luxury.

Brand however does play an extremely important part of luxury maybe even more so than quality, which is probably why Benz still sells so well even after years of producing garbage quality vehicles.

Truth is brand is what separates Hyundai from the rest, otherwise what reason is there to not consider Toyota,Nissan, and Honda as luxury makes too?

As for purchasing 70k diamond necklaces in Costco.....
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Old 04-24-09, 07:34 AM
  #124  
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Is this where we go for info on buying jewelry at Costco...............
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Old 04-24-09, 07:40 AM
  #125  
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Originally Posted by IS-SV
Is this where we go for info on buying jewelry at Costco...............
Only if you are a Hyundai owner
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Old 04-24-09, 08:36 AM
  #126  
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Originally Posted by The G Man
Only if you are a Hyundai owner
hahaha...oouch..
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Old 04-24-09, 08:40 AM
  #127  
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Originally Posted by IS-SV
Is this where we go for info on buying jewelry at Costco...............
Maybe a companion thread is needed for Sam's Club jewelry.
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Old 04-24-09, 09:47 AM
  #128  
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funny, it seems a lot of lexus owners on here shop at costco. joint marketing venture, maybe?
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Old 04-24-09, 11:45 AM
  #129  
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I have a Costco card, you never know when you might need 20 pounds of pasta right?
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Old 04-24-09, 12:27 PM
  #130  
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Go Korean cars! (finally....)
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Old 04-24-09, 12:35 PM
  #131  
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Originally Posted by The G Man
I have a Costco card, you never know when you might need 20 pounds of pasta right?
Don't forget the 2 gallons of sauce with that.
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Old 04-24-09, 12:45 PM
  #132  
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Originally Posted by YEH

My point isn't that the Asian market doesn't like BMWs and Mercedes (who doesn't?), but rather that people in Japan and SKorea have no problem driving a "luxury" car from Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Hyundai, Samsung, etc. since they are seen as "full-line" manufacturers (think of them as GM w/o the sub-brands of Caddy, Buick, Chevy, etc.).

No, this is wrong. "German" cars have an almost mythical status in Asia, especilly in Japan and South Korea. Anyone willing to make a statement of their wealth goes and buys a German luxury sedan. They are from the "land of the Autobahn", they are perceived as having superior engineering, however fair or unfair that may be. Lexus and Acura have tanked in Japan, even with all it's nationalistic pride. The same holds true in S. Korea as well, who have absorbent import tarrifs to subsidize Hyundai.

Here's a great Business Week piece

Why Toyota's luxury lineup is getting little traction at home—while German brands remain an obsession

When Toyota (TM) introduced its Lexus brand in Japan three years ago, the company was hoping drivers like Masayoshi Haku would swoon over the luxury lineup. The 46-year-old doctor is a car lover with a $110,000 BMW 750 sedan and a $60,000 Porsche Boxster, so he should have been a prime customer for Lexus. But Haku hasn't taken the bait. Why? Lexus is too Japanese for his tastes. "Lexus makes excellent cars. But if you ask me whether I'd buy one, the answer is no," says Haku. "Foreign brands have more individuality."

For most Japanese car buyers, "foreign" really means "German." Although Lexus hit American showrooms 19 years ago and has been the top-selling luxury nameplate in the U.S. since 2000, it didn't arrive in Japan until 2005. By that time German brands dominated the high end, and Lexus has had a tough time getting a toehold, reaching only 60% of Toyota's initial sales projections. In 2007, Lexus moved 34,800 cars—about what it sold in December alone in the U.S.—and sales so far this year are down.

A big problem was the initial lineup. The company started with just three models: the $52,000 GS sports sedan, the $68,000 SC convertible, and the entry-level IS sedan, starting at about $40,000. All three had previously been available in Japan under the Toyota nameplate—for about 20% less than the Lexus models.

Worse, the buzz Toyota created for Lexus may have benefited the Germans. Following the Lexus launch, rivals say they saw increased interest as customers then visited BMW, Mercedes-Benz (DAI), and Audi (VLKAY) showrooms to compare. "The introduction of Lexus is energizing the luxury car market," says Ashvin Chotai, an independent auto consultant. But few customers have steered away from the German makes. Chotai says 80% of early Lexus buyers were former Toyota drivers; only 5% came from Mercedes or BMW. "Getting Lexus accepted as a bona fide luxury brand seems to be a lot harder in Japan than in the U.S.," says Chris Richter, an auto analyst at brokerage CLSA. "It's one of the rare times Toyota has stumbled."

Japan's German-car obsession shouldn't have been news to Toyota. Wander through Tokyo's upscale wards and you'll find no shortage of expensive German models, even though they're often too big to comfortably navigate Japan's narrow streets. And many of them have the steering wheel on the left, the European standard, rather than on the right, Japan's norm. "I wanted to drive an authentic BMW, like the ones in Germany," says Yoshihiro Nakahashi, who runs a Web site for BMW fans and pilots a left-hand-drive BMW 320si.



Last edited by FKL; 04-24-09 at 12:48 PM.
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Old 04-24-09, 01:57 PM
  #133  
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Originally Posted by YEH
Uhh, people who are smart enough not to pay the exorbitant mark-up for a similar thing just b/c it comes in a blue box (it's not like the quality of the diamonds is any better).
you forget the 4 "C" of diamonds:
1) cut
2) carat
3) clarity
4) color

i highly doubt costco will provide IF or VVS-1 clarity with E color. high end diamonds will always be exclusive to high end jewelry boutiques. i'm no diamond expert, but there is a difference in quality of diamonds. you do get what you pay for (whether that is justified is another matter). i recommend you read the link below to see for yourself.

http://www.allaboutgemstones.com/diamonds.html
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Old 04-24-09, 02:01 PM
  #134  
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Originally Posted by The G Man
I have a Costco card, you never know when you might need 20 pounds of pasta right?
I went to Walmart last weekend, now that's a zoo.

But I took the Jeep.
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Old 04-25-09, 12:43 AM
  #135  
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i think genesis really was just the beginning.

the real game changer will be the next gen sonata. unlike camry and accord, it will be a looker with a performance to back it up. i think it is poised to become one of the big boys. the real battle ground is the midsize sedan, and i think hyundai will hit a home run again.

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