Is the V8 a dying breed? Auto engineers expect more turbos, smaller engines
04-21-09, 06:44 PM
#1
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Is the V8 a dying breed? Auto engineers expect more turbos, smaller engines
The V8 engine, a symbol of power and prestige for more than a century, is looking more and more like an endangered species.
A panel of powertrain experts speaking on Tuesday at the 2009 SAE World Congress painted a bleak picture for big engines in this era of tightening emission standards and volatile fuel prices.
But smaller engines will not mean drivers have to give up performance.
By combining advanced engine technology, lower vehicle weight, sleeker aerodynamics and more efficient transmissions, smaller engines can replace bigger ones without affecting acceleration and towing performance.
Mary Ann Wright, CEO of the Johnson Controls-Saft joint venture battery company, said the United States has started to move closer to other countries' emission regulations since the Obama administration took over in January.
She said last week's proposed EPA finding that greenhouse gases are harmful to humans lays the groundwork for legislation that will see the U.S. reduce carbon dioxide emissions in step with other countries.
"You are going to see the discussion starting to shift to not only reducing fuel consumption but CO2," Wright said.
The trend of replacing big engines with smaller ones is under way and presents the best near-term solution for automakers to reduce CO2 emissions and improve fuel economy, SAE several panelists said.
"The cornerstone of our sustainability strategy is EcoBoost," said Dan Kapp, Ford Motor Co.'s director of powertrain research and advanced engineering.
EcoBoost debuts this spring on the Lincoln MKS luxury sedan. In that car, the 3.7-liter engine is replaced by a 3.5-liter engine equipped with twin turbochargers and direct fuel injection. Horsepower is rated at 355--about the same as a V8--but the EcoBoost engine has better fuel economy.
General Motors already has launched vehicles such as the Pontiac Solstice GXP with smaller turbocharged engines. But Ford plans to make EcoBoost available on 90 percent of its nameplates by 2012 and wants to sell 500,000 EcoBoost vehicles a year in the United States and 750,000 globally by 2014, Kapp said.
Minoru Shinohara, a senior vice president at Nissan Motor Co., said technology alone won't deliver all that is needed to meet global emissions standards. A large contributor, he said, can be driver behavior.
Nissan is developing several in-car technologies that warn, prompt or help a driver consume less fuel. One is a touch pad on the accelerator pedal that pushes back slightly if the driver increases speed too much.
Nissan also has installed in several models a device called an Ecometer that keeps the driver informed about the vehicle's performance and of road conditions.
"A customer can check his fuel economy performance against other drivers on the Internet, just like a video game," Shinohara said.
He also described a driver information system called Carwings that Nissan is testing in Los Angeles and Yokohama, Japan. The system alerts drivers to traffic backups and routes them away from them. Shinohara said early results show that avoiding congestion delivers an 18 percent fuel economy gain.
Suppliers such as BorgWarner Inc. are working on more efficient turbochargers and transmissions to help vehicles use less fuel.
One system BorgWarner is developing is a chain-driven starter-alternator that could eliminate the old-fashioned rubber fan belt, said Roger Wood, BorgWarner's executive vice president of turbo and emissions systems. He also predicted that the application rate of turbochargers on gasoline engines would grow 135 percent by 2014.
"Turbocharged engines offer 15 percent to 30 percent better fuel economy and as much as 20 percent reduction in CO2 emissions," Wood said.
Smaller turbocharged engines could account for as much as 20 percent of the market by 2014, said Uwe Grebe, GM's executive director for advanced engineering.
To read more visit the AutoWeek New car news, road tests, blogs, pix and expert insight section.
A panel of powertrain experts speaking on Tuesday at the 2009 SAE World Congress painted a bleak picture for big engines in this era of tightening emission standards and volatile fuel prices.
But smaller engines will not mean drivers have to give up performance.
By combining advanced engine technology, lower vehicle weight, sleeker aerodynamics and more efficient transmissions, smaller engines can replace bigger ones without affecting acceleration and towing performance.
Mary Ann Wright, CEO of the Johnson Controls-Saft joint venture battery company, said the United States has started to move closer to other countries' emission regulations since the Obama administration took over in January.
She said last week's proposed EPA finding that greenhouse gases are harmful to humans lays the groundwork for legislation that will see the U.S. reduce carbon dioxide emissions in step with other countries.
"You are going to see the discussion starting to shift to not only reducing fuel consumption but CO2," Wright said.
The trend of replacing big engines with smaller ones is under way and presents the best near-term solution for automakers to reduce CO2 emissions and improve fuel economy, SAE several panelists said.
"The cornerstone of our sustainability strategy is EcoBoost," said Dan Kapp, Ford Motor Co.'s director of powertrain research and advanced engineering.
EcoBoost debuts this spring on the Lincoln MKS luxury sedan. In that car, the 3.7-liter engine is replaced by a 3.5-liter engine equipped with twin turbochargers and direct fuel injection. Horsepower is rated at 355--about the same as a V8--but the EcoBoost engine has better fuel economy.
General Motors already has launched vehicles such as the Pontiac Solstice GXP with smaller turbocharged engines. But Ford plans to make EcoBoost available on 90 percent of its nameplates by 2012 and wants to sell 500,000 EcoBoost vehicles a year in the United States and 750,000 globally by 2014, Kapp said.
Minoru Shinohara, a senior vice president at Nissan Motor Co., said technology alone won't deliver all that is needed to meet global emissions standards. A large contributor, he said, can be driver behavior.
Nissan is developing several in-car technologies that warn, prompt or help a driver consume less fuel. One is a touch pad on the accelerator pedal that pushes back slightly if the driver increases speed too much.
Nissan also has installed in several models a device called an Ecometer that keeps the driver informed about the vehicle's performance and of road conditions.
"A customer can check his fuel economy performance against other drivers on the Internet, just like a video game," Shinohara said.
He also described a driver information system called Carwings that Nissan is testing in Los Angeles and Yokohama, Japan. The system alerts drivers to traffic backups and routes them away from them. Shinohara said early results show that avoiding congestion delivers an 18 percent fuel economy gain.
Suppliers such as BorgWarner Inc. are working on more efficient turbochargers and transmissions to help vehicles use less fuel.
One system BorgWarner is developing is a chain-driven starter-alternator that could eliminate the old-fashioned rubber fan belt, said Roger Wood, BorgWarner's executive vice president of turbo and emissions systems. He also predicted that the application rate of turbochargers on gasoline engines would grow 135 percent by 2014.
"Turbocharged engines offer 15 percent to 30 percent better fuel economy and as much as 20 percent reduction in CO2 emissions," Wood said.
Smaller turbocharged engines could account for as much as 20 percent of the market by 2014, said Uwe Grebe, GM's executive director for advanced engineering.
To read more visit the AutoWeek New car news, road tests, blogs, pix and expert insight section.
04-21-09, 08:33 PM
#2
I can see there being less V8s on the market because of how "good" V6s have become but I also don't think they're going to the way of the do-do bird either. Full size SUVs and trucks will continue to need V8s for several reasons, and I am positive we will continue to see them in several luxury cars.
Lexus 4.6L V8 and Mercedes' 5.5L V8s are both wonderfully efficient for how much power they put down. Newer 8 cylinder engines have come a long way from being the gas hogs of the late 90s.
Lexus 4.6L V8 and Mercedes' 5.5L V8s are both wonderfully efficient for how much power they put down. Newer 8 cylinder engines have come a long way from being the gas hogs of the late 90s.
04-21-09, 09:43 PM
#3
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I agree they might sell less but they are not going away. There is nothing like the low end torque and sound of a V-8. My 450h has the power/torque of the V-8 but it does get 30% better fuel economy. I do miss the sound of the V-8 though, my car sounds either like an eletric train whirring up to a raccoon who got shot in the nuts WOT.
Some people like simplicity and do not want Forced Induction.
Some people like simplicity and do not want Forced Induction.
04-21-09, 09:50 PM
#4
Lexus Champion
I agree they might sell less but they are not going away. There is nothing like the low end torque and sound of a V-8. My 450h has the power/torque of the V-8 but it does get 30% better fuel economy. I do miss the sound of the V-8 though, my car sounds either like an eletric train whirring up to a raccoon who got shot in the nuts WOT.
Some people like simplicity and do not want Forced Induction.
Some people like simplicity and do not want Forced Induction.
There is nothing like the sound of a V8 at full roar! (unless you're driving an M3
....sorry couldn't resist).And even BMW has stated that they will be moving to FI V6's in the next gen M3.
04-21-09, 10:03 PM
#5
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Yes V8's are a dying breed.
Most manufacturers will have to trim their line ups from excess V8s. Right now Lexus has too many V8s in their porfolio for their cars. The 4.3, 4.6 and 5.0. Lexus is having trouble moving the SC430 and the LS460 right now. No wonder why we will see a Ls350 in the future. Maybe not in America but overseas at least. Lexus only really needs one V8 for their cars.
It was smart management for once by General Motors to not invest money in redesigning the 4.6 Northstar. Same thing with Acura staying away from a V8.
As for Hyundai, building the Genesis v8 was nesassary to show they could build one..but whether it turns out to be a profit remains to be seen...it was smart not to put the 4.6 in the Genesis coupe.
Toyota truthfully doesn't really absolutely need a two v8's for their Tundra. A 5.7 with lower rear end could lower the MPG and keep everyone happy. If Toyota can't sell 200,000 Tundra, they really don't really need two v8s.
Yes the v8 is dying. There will be a need for them...but they will be hard to sell and perhaps hard to come by if the manufacturers build them in low volumes.
Most manufacturers will have to trim their line ups from excess V8s. Right now Lexus has too many V8s in their porfolio for their cars. The 4.3, 4.6 and 5.0. Lexus is having trouble moving the SC430 and the LS460 right now. No wonder why we will see a Ls350 in the future. Maybe not in America but overseas at least. Lexus only really needs one V8 for their cars.
It was smart management for once by General Motors to not invest money in redesigning the 4.6 Northstar. Same thing with Acura staying away from a V8.
As for Hyundai, building the Genesis v8 was nesassary to show they could build one..but whether it turns out to be a profit remains to be seen...it was smart not to put the 4.6 in the Genesis coupe.
Toyota truthfully doesn't really absolutely need a two v8's for their Tundra. A 5.7 with lower rear end could lower the MPG and keep everyone happy. If Toyota can't sell 200,000 Tundra, they really don't really need two v8s.
Yes the v8 is dying. There will be a need for them...but they will be hard to sell and perhaps hard to come by if the manufacturers build them in low volumes.
04-21-09, 10:09 PM
#6
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Yes V8's are a dying breed.
Most manufacturers will have to trim their line ups from excess V8s. Right now Lexus has too many V8s in their porfolio for their cars. The 4.3, 4.6 and 5.0. Lexus is having trouble moving the SC430 and the LS460 right now. No wonder why we will see a Ls350 in the future. Maybe not in America but overseas at least. Lexus only really needs one V8 for their cars.
It was smart management for once by General Motors to not invest money in redesigning the 4.6 Northstar. Same thing with Acura staying away from a V8.
As for Hyundai, building the Genesis v8 was nesassary to show they could build one..but whether it turns out to be a profit remains to be seen...it was smart not to put the 4.6 in the Genesis coupe.
Toyota truthfully doesn't really absolutely need a two v8's for their Tundra. A 5.7 with lower rear end could lower the MPG and keep everyone happy. If Toyota can't sell 200,000 Tundra, they really don't really need two v8s.
Yes the v8 is dying. There will be a need for them...but they will be hard to sell and perhaps hard to come by if the manufacturers build them in low volumes.
Most manufacturers will have to trim their line ups from excess V8s. Right now Lexus has too many V8s in their porfolio for their cars. The 4.3, 4.6 and 5.0. Lexus is having trouble moving the SC430 and the LS460 right now. No wonder why we will see a Ls350 in the future. Maybe not in America but overseas at least. Lexus only really needs one V8 for their cars.
It was smart management for once by General Motors to not invest money in redesigning the 4.6 Northstar. Same thing with Acura staying away from a V8.
As for Hyundai, building the Genesis v8 was nesassary to show they could build one..but whether it turns out to be a profit remains to be seen...it was smart not to put the 4.6 in the Genesis coupe.
Toyota truthfully doesn't really absolutely need a two v8's for their Tundra. A 5.7 with lower rear end could lower the MPG and keep everyone happy. If Toyota can't sell 200,000 Tundra, they really don't really need two v8s.
Yes the v8 is dying. There will be a need for them...but they will be hard to sell and perhaps hard to come by if the manufacturers build them in low volumes.
Sorry you don't really understand this market. V-8s are essential. Hell BMW just added twin turbos to their V-8 AND V-12.
04-21-09, 10:14 PM
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Sorry you don't really understand this market. V-8s are essential. Hell BMW just added twin turbos to their V-8 AND V-12
Lexus biggest mistake is still offering the 4.6 in the GS. No wonder why Toyota lost money last quarter.
There is a need but just no so many.
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04-21-09, 10:20 PM
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You just don't like Acura. Nothing wrong with that. But Acura has no models that require a V8.
Yes V8s are essential. But Lexus does not need three nor does Toyota need two in their trucks if they car/trucks are selling very well.
Lexus biggest mistake is still offering the 4.6 in the GS. No wonder why Toyota lost money last quarter.
There is a need but just no so many.
Yes V8s are essential. But Lexus does not need three nor does Toyota need two in their trucks if they car/trucks are selling very well.
Lexus biggest mistake is still offering the 4.6 in the GS. No wonder why Toyota lost money last quarter.
There is a need but just no so many.
Lexus is going to do what the market wants and their research usually is very accurate. Infiniti on the other hand continues to be a brand that is about sharing parts, thus they will go from 3 V-8s currently to just one in the future, the 5.0 V-8 that is in the FX50, it will go in the next M50 and the next QX based on the Petrol.
If some companies want to avoid V-8s, they should have been experts YEARS ago in diesels, FI, hybrids. It makes no sense to NOT offer V-8s, then offer big V-6s that consume like a V-8, accelerate like a smaller V-6 and have the fuel economy of V-8s. Thats just stupid and people who buy them clearly don't like true technology in transmissions and engines and not some cute heated seats.
The article fails to mention trannies as well. A 5 speed is a joke today. More speeds allow engines to be more efficient, thus give more economy.
Last edited by LexFather; 04-21-09 at 10:24 PM.
04-21-09, 10:23 PM
#9
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I can see there being less V8s on the market because of how "good" V6s have become but I also don't think they're going to the way of the do-do bird either. Full size SUVs and trucks will continue to need V8s for several reasons, and I am positive we will continue to see them in several luxury cars.
Lexus 4.6L V8 and Mercedes' 5.5L V8s are both wonderfully efficient for how much power they put down. Newer 8 cylinder engines have come a long way from being the gas hogs of the late 90s.
Lexus 4.6L V8 and Mercedes' 5.5L V8s are both wonderfully efficient for how much power they put down. Newer 8 cylinder engines have come a long way from being the gas hogs of the late 90s.
04-21-09, 10:23 PM
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Some cars offer(ed) multiple V-8s. Its too late though, even if they offered a V-8, Hyundai, Kia beat them to the punch
04-21-09, 10:25 PM
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Yes and they proved they can do it. They also have shows FI for the V-8 and it can grow to 5.0 liters. They also offer a 6 speed and in the future an 8 speed to help with fuel economy.
04-21-09, 10:28 PM
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Lexus is going to do what the market wants and their research usually is very accurate. Infiniti on the other hand continues to be a brand that is about sharing parts, thus they will go from 3 V-8s currently to just one in the future, the 5.0 V-8 that is in the FX50, it will go in the next M50 and the next QX based on the Petrol.
.
.
The article fails to mention trannies as well. A 5 speed is a joke today. More speeds allow engines to be more efficient, thus give more economy
04-22-09, 10:46 AM
#14
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I don't think the v8 will totally go away in the future but it is going to be much much rarer as 6 cylinders NA, FI, or hybrid get better and better and start making v8's obsolete or not the step up they used to be performance wise, the NA flat six in the new GT3 puts out 435hp without direct injection which is absolutely amazing. Six cylinders are going to be making their way more and more into cars that traditionally only offered v8s and even replacing v8s and v8s will probably be much rarer and much more expensive options for the cars that still offer them as options. If companies don't want to give up on v8's and still offer them as options they hope sell in decent numbers they are going to have to work much harder on getting them to be a good deal more fuel efficient while still offering a distinct advantage over 300+hp 6 cylinders.
All manufactures need to put their cars on a diet and start spending the money not so much on all the latest tech and features but making their cars much lighter then they are, this 4000lbs+ being the norm for larger lux sedans/coupes and SUVs needs to go and 3600-3800lbs for mid to smaller lux/sport sedans needs to go too. If they could shave off a couple hundred pounds the cars would not need as big of engines, as much horsepower, drive much better, and get much better fuel economy but it seems very few volume manufactures put much effort into making their cars lighter. If cars keep getting heavier and v8s don't make much progress in fuel economy then yes they are going to disappear on mid priced lux/perf vehicles and will only be offered in small numbers in very high end high priced cars which would be disappointing.
All manufactures need to put their cars on a diet and start spending the money not so much on all the latest tech and features but making their cars much lighter then they are, this 4000lbs+ being the norm for larger lux sedans/coupes and SUVs needs to go and 3600-3800lbs for mid to smaller lux/sport sedans needs to go too. If they could shave off a couple hundred pounds the cars would not need as big of engines, as much horsepower, drive much better, and get much better fuel economy but it seems very few volume manufactures put much effort into making their cars lighter. If cars keep getting heavier and v8s don't make much progress in fuel economy then yes they are going to disappear on mid priced lux/perf vehicles and will only be offered in small numbers in very high end high priced cars which would be disappointing.
04-22-09, 10:58 AM
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Agreed. I am dissapointed that the Fusion gained 200 lbs. I always commended it for only weighing in at 3100 lbs for the base model. That being said, this model is even more efficient and more powerful.
I think engine sizes have really ballooned to a point that they don't need to be for your average vehicle. I like the Subaru 2.5L car, because Subarus are athletic, rugged, AWD vehicles. But does a Camry need a 180 HP 2.5L? I think a 165 HP, smaller, more efficient powerplant would suffice. Same with the 3.5L. That's alot for the Camry, whereas I can see a vehicle like the Fusion having that option (the new one does) since you can get it in AWD. Who is trying to go fast in a FWD Camry?
I think engine sizes have really ballooned to a point that they don't need to be for your average vehicle. I like the Subaru 2.5L car, because Subarus are athletic, rugged, AWD vehicles. But does a Camry need a 180 HP 2.5L? I think a 165 HP, smaller, more efficient powerplant would suffice. Same with the 3.5L. That's alot for the Camry, whereas I can see a vehicle like the Fusion having that option (the new one does) since you can get it in AWD. Who is trying to go fast in a FWD Camry?