Forbes: The Battle To Watch: Volkswagen Vs. Toyota
05-04-09, 01:57 PM
#46
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Well the Accord is a lot less numb than a Camry (sans the SE trim), but fact remains - the Accord feels less expsive than the comparable german car when rolling down the road - everything feels lighter, the suspension damping, the way it handles, and even the body hardware. The Camry SE is too harsh for handling gains the Passat already offers with reasonable suspension. Toyota could actually learn something here. And notice I said handling gains - the steering feel and feedback on the Accord and Camry need work.
05-04-09, 06:37 PM
#47
In this case, German "Vanilla" is actually much different from Japanese vanilla.
At the core of Volkswagen's brand identity is Germanic road manners in a solid, German package. Say what you will, but most regular Toyota offerings are boring to drive and immensely reliable. That's Toyota's brand identity, fair or not. The floor would fall out if Toyota started making unreliable cars, or if VW ever tried to sell a car that was as boring to drive as a Toyota, with the reliability of a VW.
As for moving VW "upmarket", the entire push went well beyond the expensive Phaeton and Touareg. Starting at the dawn of the new millennium, The New Bettle, along with the Golf/Bora/Jetta and Passat were the three products that were instrumental to not only keeping VW a relevant player on the global stage, but save it's US operation as well. Pierch wanted only the finest interior materials for these vehicles, and it clearly shows all around. There was real reason why these vehicles were more costly than their competition. More standard safety features, better driving dynamics (standard tiptronic), and best in class interior and exterior build quality. Yes, reliability was another thing altogether, but the Jetta and Passat were (and still are), the benchmarks in their classes. It took the Japanese (Honda, Toyota) until their next product cycles to release something even comparable on the safety front (curtain airbags), let alone the packaging/powertrain front. Even today, they are implementing turbocharged and supercharged power train solutions on inexpensive automobiles, releasing automated dual clutch gear boxes not only on premium vehicles, but on their core product lines. The competition is again taking notice, watch for Direct injection, dual clutch, and turbocharging to be incorporated into mass market offerings from other manufactures during their next product cycles. Of course, there seems to be an obvious price paid on reliability and maintenance costs, but that's the cost of state of the art entry firsts.
Toyota, on the other hand, has finally found something to be proud of with their Hybrid Synergy Drive. Nobody could argue that it isn't a good thing for millions of consumers around the world - it's great, but the problem is, it's boring to drive. Perhaps it's fun on a Lexus model approaching $60K, but in a Camry or Prius, it's boring. Not just the engine, the steering, the suspension, it's all underwhelming. That's why German vanilla tastes different than the Japanese variety.
At the core of Volkswagen's brand identity is Germanic road manners in a solid, German package. Say what you will, but most regular Toyota offerings are boring to drive and immensely reliable. That's Toyota's brand identity, fair or not. The floor would fall out if Toyota started making unreliable cars, or if VW ever tried to sell a car that was as boring to drive as a Toyota, with the reliability of a VW.
As for moving VW "upmarket", the entire push went well beyond the expensive Phaeton and Touareg. Starting at the dawn of the new millennium, The New Bettle, along with the Golf/Bora/Jetta and Passat were the three products that were instrumental to not only keeping VW a relevant player on the global stage, but save it's US operation as well. Pierch wanted only the finest interior materials for these vehicles, and it clearly shows all around. There was real reason why these vehicles were more costly than their competition. More standard safety features, better driving dynamics (standard tiptronic), and best in class interior and exterior build quality. Yes, reliability was another thing altogether, but the Jetta and Passat were (and still are), the benchmarks in their classes. It took the Japanese (Honda, Toyota) until their next product cycles to release something even comparable on the safety front (curtain airbags), let alone the packaging/powertrain front. Even today, they are implementing turbocharged and supercharged power train solutions on inexpensive automobiles, releasing automated dual clutch gear boxes not only on premium vehicles, but on their core product lines. The competition is again taking notice, watch for Direct injection, dual clutch, and turbocharging to be incorporated into mass market offerings from other manufactures during their next product cycles. Of course, there seems to be an obvious price paid on reliability and maintenance costs, but that's the cost of state of the art entry firsts.
Toyota, on the other hand, has finally found something to be proud of with their Hybrid Synergy Drive. Nobody could argue that it isn't a good thing for millions of consumers around the world - it's great, but the problem is, it's boring to drive. Perhaps it's fun on a Lexus model approaching $60K, but in a Camry or Prius, it's boring. Not just the engine, the steering, the suspension, it's all underwhelming. That's why German vanilla tastes different than the Japanese variety.
I recently had pleasure of sampling all of d-segment vehicles (Passat, Mondeo, Skoda Octavia, Citroen C5, Honda Accord, Renault Laguna, Mazda6 and Toyota Avensis) on 2 day drives... and honestly, all 30 of us thought that, by far, Passat is the worst vehicle in its class. Dont read too many european websites, especially UK ones - they claim Mondeo to be best handling one and its pretty silly.
We really had good chance to test them on decent routes and everyone was suprised how bad Passat and Mondeo were... Positive suprise of the bunch was C5 as we all knew that Japanese were the best :P
05-05-09, 12:55 PM
#49
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spwolr, I've read you post that before and I don't agree at all. The TSX is more stifly sprung yet the steering feel isn't there. The Passat is about balance, and if you push one hard, you'll know it.
05-05-09, 05:10 PM
#50
. We pushed them all hard on real european mountain roads. Forget Toyota and my bias, C5/Mazda6/Accord(TSX) are all better cars, in every way you look at it. Heck, for the price, we liked Skoda better. German mags, even with their obvious bias (as all of europe anyway), acnowledge streghts on other cars - while UK mags are all about VW/Ford which is shocking once you get to test all the cars on the same route. Mondeo - which is, by all mags, rated the best drive in the class, drives like barge, has trobule putting power to the front wheels and we abandoned cone tests after having to modify it several times since mondeo couldnt complete it.And yeah, european toyota's are differently tuned of course, and Avensis is completly different model to Camry.
Point was, in any case, how VW isn Europe is pretty much what Toyota is in USA. Just different markets made VW position itself differently in USA, while in Europe, it is VW that is the "safe" and borning choice. If you want to be different you get japanese car :P.
Or C5, which blew many of us away. It had it flaws but overall it looks awesome and hydraulic suspension is quite interesting. Interior is very quirky and impressive at the same time.
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