LexBob2

I don't have a problem with dealers "asking" for a high markup on new and in demand cars. The consumer can always just say "no". When enough do, then the prices come down. They always do (New Beetle, PT Cruiser etc., etc.). In the long run, the law supply and demand works.

mmarshall

Steep mark-ups are not limited to GM or Chevy dealers by any means. I can remember classic price gouging, when new, on a wide example of new vehicles....the Honda CRX, Mazda Miata, Toyota RAV-4, Porsche Boxster, BMW Z3, Chrysler PT Cruiser, 2-seat Ford Thunderbird, Nissan 350Z, Shelby Mustang, Ford GT, Plymouth Prowler, and Honda S2000, just to name a few. In general, though, it seems to apply mostly to sports cars and sport-oriented vehicles. Yet, we didn't see much, if any gouging, on the then-new Dodge Challenger several months ago.

IS-SV

Most experienced car shoppers here literally ignore the markups on displayed on cars.

These fake markups are posted on so many cars here, so they are just ignored like balloons on cars, "SALE" signs, popup ads, etc.

mmarshall

Of course YOU, as a potential buyer, can ignore it, but whether the dealership will ignore it or not is another matter. You can sometimes negotiate a better deal if you know the salespeople or are a repeat customer (as I have done for both me and others), but dealerships are in buisness to make money, and if they think they can get more from another customer, they don't have to lower the price for you.

That, among many other reasons, is why Saturn was such a success with customers in the 90's. New and used cars, by company policy (strictly enforced), were sold at list price only (which included an average 14% mark-up on new cars for dealer profit). Paperwork was quick and easy.....there were no mark-ups, discounts, or factory incentives, regardless of demand......they simply weren't allowed, though you could sometimes bargain a little on finance terms and trade-in values. Salespeople wore bright-colored T-Shirts instead of buisness suits, and were paid a guaranteed salary instead of comissions. It was a truly wonderful system, and worked superbly well until GM and Saturn management began to screw it up in 1999...and it's been downhill ever since.

IS-SV

As much as I enjoyed the old Saturn trivia, car buying has changed a lot over the last decade (especially for the experienced), so it doesn't really apply today.

mmarshall

Well, that is one reason (among many) why the market is in such a mess today, especially Saturn. Toyota instituted some of Saturn's sales and service policies with its own Scion brand......and wisely kept them.
Toyota went on to become the world's #1 automaker.

IS-SV

GM/Saturn dug their own grave with so-so products that failed to standout or appeal to the demanding buyers.

Yes, I know I've owned several Toyotas and bought/paid for a Scion for a family member in 2003. The main reasons for Toyota and Scions success are superior products. The internet and related transparency has changed the game, cars that most people buy are only commodities, even the high end ones.

mmarshall

True to an extent, but GM, today, does some nice products (including the Saturn Aura, perhaps the best Saturn product since they left the plastic-body designs).

And, while I agree with you that the small, plastic-body Saturns of the 1990's were generally not exciting to drive, being essentially uniquely-designed econoboxes, they had some excellent features on them that endured themselves to customers.

Toyota, despite its acknowledged success, has also been the victim of cost-cutting in a number of their newer products, especially with interior trim and solidness. The latest-generation Tundra pickup, for example, when it was introduced in 2006 (I did a full review of a 4WD 5.3L I-Force model) had some inexcusable shoddiness in its sheet metal, trim, and interior appointments.

mmarshall

Anyhow, back to the Camaro SS.

Has anyone else noticed any markups like the one I saw today (15K)? I know that not many of you may have seen the car yet, except at auto shows......they are just starting to arrive at dealerships.

8speed

I know you can't be referring to the Saturn Sky and Ion Redline...........two of the most horrific and repugnant cars ever produced. If you're not a 16 year old girl living in the OC and you're caught driving one of these cars you are epic FAIL

mmarshall

The Ion, though not necessarily a car just for teen-age girls (that's just image nonsense), was indeed a joke....the Sky far less so. But the Ion was not representative of the good Saturn small cars of the 90's. It kept the plastic body panels, but, otherwise, I agree, was a POS. Most sources in the auto press also agree. I test-drove one when it first came out (in 2002, I think), and I didn't even bother to take notes or write it up.

The Sky, though, despite a worse-than-average repair record, lackluster build quality, and a rather hard-to-use manual top (much harder than the Miata's) is actually a pretty nice little roadster, and, except for the aforementioned manual top, gives the Miata some fairly good competition. And, IMO, the Sky's front end looks far better than the brother Pontiac Solstice's Bucky-Beaver-Tooth grille,

LexFather

Considering GM and dealers shape, that take a lot of ***** to do.

mmarshall

In your area, (Atlanta) that may (?) be true. Here in the D.C. area, with its relatively affluent society and recession-resistant economy, dealerships are used to price-gouging on hot new cars before demand catches up wth supply. I've seen it before.....many times, though I myself have never paid significantly more than sticker for a car. The ONLY time I ever paid more than list was in early 1984, with my first Mazda, during the Reagan-era import-car restrictions, when Japanese cars were all but impossible to buy at list, and even that was very close to list (maybe $100 or so).....I drove a hard bargain.

f=ma

business is business.

IS-SV

Exactly, and on the business side of the consumer, the smart ones ignore the fake markups. Mistake number one is to even acknowledge the fake markup.