After comparing specs of the Civic Hybrid and Insight, the Insight makes little sense
05-03-09, 06:06 PM
#31
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I wish Subaru hadn't cancelled their TPH program. Seemed really promising. 2.0L Turbo Hybrid with a Li-ion battery. But then they are a small company. At least they got the battery technology down.
05-04-09, 05:37 AM
#32
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Just fixed the TMV (true market value) prices in my OP. Turns out that the Insight EX is costing people $568.00 more than the average purchase price for the base Civic Hybrid (base simply means no leather and Nav). For the record, the stripped down Insight LX's TMV is $20,470. Just a $1,000 less than the Civic H's TMV.
also, the insight has been shown to be capable of far better MPG than the Civic H.
that said, I'd still compare the 2 hard if I was looking for a car right now.
05-04-09, 05:47 AM
#33
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Whether Honda offer the Insight make sense or not should not matter to us consumers. We all should think that the more choices we have of hybrid out there to buy the better. It's thanks to Honda that offer the Insight that have Toyota lower their Prius pricing. Without the Insight being offer now I do not think Toyota would lower their pricing. So one win to us consumers. More choices of hybrids. Two wins.
Like I said competition is good for us consumers
Like I said competition is good for us consumers
05-04-09, 09:36 AM
#34
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If you see post number 11, mmarshall states that he would buy a Chevy Malibu before some Japanese-designed models which leads me to believe he might be purchasing an American car some time in the future...
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/car...ml#post4480957
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/car...ml#post4480957
05-04-09, 08:02 PM
#35
Lexus Fanatic
The HS is really based off the Avensis. Nothing from the Corolla is in the larger HS.
Nevertheless, I think Toyota has held off of a Corolla Hybrid because of marketing. It would price the corolla too high (prius level). That said, when the hybrid tech continues to become more affordable, I think we'll see a Corolla H. There's even talks of a Yaris Hybrid (next gen based)! That should be good for 60 mpg! I think if this happens, the Yaris would be the cheapest hybrid on the market when it comes to pass. $17K maybe?
Nevertheless, I think Toyota has held off of a Corolla Hybrid because of marketing. It would price the corolla too high (prius level). That said, when the hybrid tech continues to become more affordable, I think we'll see a Corolla H. There's even talks of a Yaris Hybrid (next gen based)! That should be good for 60 mpg! I think if this happens, the Yaris would be the cheapest hybrid on the market when it comes to pass. $17K maybe?
You may have a point about a possible $17-18K Yaris Hybrid. But, keep in mind, though, hybrid pricing is more than just a size difference. Toyota, in general, does more complex, more sophisticated Hybrid powertrains that are (probably) more expensive to produce than the Honda IMA units, regardless of size. So, it remains to be seen if a Toyota hybrid, even with the ultra-small Yaris, can undercut the Insight's price. That will be difficult......Honda, IMO, has done an excellent job keeping the Insight's price down, despite its somewhat cheap interior trim.
05-04-09, 08:21 PM
#36
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But a Subaru is by no means my definite next purchase. I take a LONG time to decide what I want, drive a LOT of cars, and don't come to snap decisions. When I bought my Lexus IS300 in 2001, for example, I had literally been on and-off shopping for 2 or 3 years....I had no idea what was going to replace my Toyota Celica or Saturn SL-2 (I had 2 cars at the time) until I saw a yellow IS300 at the 2001 D.C. auto show and fell in love. The IS300 originally brought me into CL as a member.
But, when I say I would buy "American" before some "Japanese-designed models" I am refering to the fact that just because a vehicle is designed or built under a Japanese namplate, that does not, IMO, automatically make it better than something designed and/or built in America or Europe. Some Mitsubishis, Suzuki SUV's, and even some Toyota vehicles, for various reasons, don't impress me, despite their Japanese origins.
Last edited by mmarshall; 05-04-09 at 08:27 PM.
05-04-09, 08:24 PM
#37
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Subaru also, for the most part, promised us diesels for 2010 in the American market, as they have been in Europe for a couple of years. But, on the new, totally redesigned 2010 Legacy/Outback, there's still no sign of them, despite the new CVT transmission on the base 2.5 models. Maybe (?) we'll see diesels on the 2010 Impreza/Forester.....but I wouldn't hold my breath.
05-04-09, 08:34 PM
#38
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what makes no sense to me is that both the prius and the new honda hybrid have the same odd shape. I wish they could get us high mpg in something that doesn't look so strange
05-04-09, 08:38 PM
#39
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where do you get your TMV?? I already posted a dealer taking $750 off a brand new Insight with no haggling on Ebay BUY IT NOW....I imagine $1000 off would be very do-able. I realize one auction doesn't create a trend but it gives an indication of what's available out there - not what some guy at Edmund's thinks the cars are going for or what they should go for.
also, the insight has been shown to be capable of far better MPG than the Civic H.
that said, I'd still compare the 2 hard if I was looking for a car right now.
also, the insight has been shown to be capable of far better MPG than the Civic H.
that said, I'd still compare the 2 hard if I was looking for a car right now.
But yes, TMV is an Edmund's feature. But it isn't just "some guy who decides what the price should be". Edmund's continuously collects dealer sales data to determine what cars actually sell for by area. They also factor inventory levels, market conditions, as well as unpublished incentives.
http://www.edmunds.com/popupinfo/abouttmvprices.html
I still have yet to see an Insight on the road. I went to my local Honda dealer and they had only two and certainly weren't about to give incentives on them.
05-04-09, 08:42 PM
#40
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They can. Look no further than the Fusion Hybrid which almost matches the Insight despite being larger and heavier and having a "normal" shape. Never mind the Civic Hybrid that I have pointed out as having a higher EPA rating while having normal sedan architecture.
05-06-09, 03:18 PM
#41
One thing about the Civic Hybrid...someone needs to switch out those nerd wheels, or offer the option of upgraded wheels. They almost look like they're there to compensate for the Civic's conventional shape by screaming "HYBRID RIGHT HERE!!"
I'm sure the Insight's drivetrain is more advanced, streamlined and/or efficient than that of the Civic-H. I was actually feeling that the Civic Hybrid's time has come and gone, given that the Insight is now here and seems to be faster and has more storage. Not sure why it doesn't register significantly higher MPG than the Civic.
OT, but I was checking out my colleague's first-gen Insight. The tire size is 165...is that even any wider than a compact spare?
I'm sure the Insight's drivetrain is more advanced, streamlined and/or efficient than that of the Civic-H. I was actually feeling that the Civic Hybrid's time has come and gone, given that the Insight is now here and seems to be faster and has more storage. Not sure why it doesn't register significantly higher MPG than the Civic.
OT, but I was checking out my colleague's first-gen Insight. The tire size is 165...is that even any wider than a compact spare?
I will say that Honda has achieved what they set to do - to sell the world's cheapest hybrid. The question is whether the extra mpg is worth the cost. My test drive of the Insight in a short test drive route with the temperature at 8°C (47°F or thereabouts) netted me 4.5L/100km (52mpg). That's pretty good considering the car's brand new and has broken in yet.
Spare tyres are 155 or 165mm in width, yes. The smart's front tyre is 155mm in width. The new Insight is 175.
While the specs on the Insight and Civic Hybrid are similar, I think it's Honda's way of separating the market for those looking to purchase a hybrid at a similar price point. I see nothing wrong with Honda offering a dedicated hybrid (Insight) alongside an existing sedan hybrid (Civic) to those who prefer either a "hey, look at me, I'm driving a hybrid!!" types vs those who prefer more traditional sedan styling.
I guarantee if Toyota made a Corolla hybrid, the same comparisons would be made with the Prius (why get a Prius when you can just get a Corolla hybrid instead?). Toyota can make a Corolla hybrid with almost the same fuel efficiency as the Prius, yet they choose not to. I happen to personally think that's a mistake. Because like I said, there are those types of people (like myself) who would prefer more traditional sedan styling yet still get the same or similar mpg of a typical hybrid. Clearly, Toyota does not want to chance cannibalizing some sales of their Prius with sales of a Corolla hybrid, which is why they haven't made one.
I see nothing wrong with the Civic hybrid and Insight sharing similar specs. Honda could have done the same thing as Toyota and made the Accord (4 cyl) a hybrid (like they did with the Camry) instead of the Civic, but they chose to put the IMA system on their most efficient model instead. I still think Honda should hybridize the Accord (just like I think Toyota should hybridize the Corolla), because IMO there's enough room for all 3 models (Insight, Civic hybrid, & Accord hybrid) to equally coexist within the market.
I guarantee if Toyota made a Corolla hybrid, the same comparisons would be made with the Prius (why get a Prius when you can just get a Corolla hybrid instead?). Toyota can make a Corolla hybrid with almost the same fuel efficiency as the Prius, yet they choose not to. I happen to personally think that's a mistake. Because like I said, there are those types of people (like myself) who would prefer more traditional sedan styling yet still get the same or similar mpg of a typical hybrid. Clearly, Toyota does not want to chance cannibalizing some sales of their Prius with sales of a Corolla hybrid, which is why they haven't made one.
I see nothing wrong with the Civic hybrid and Insight sharing similar specs. Honda could have done the same thing as Toyota and made the Accord (4 cyl) a hybrid (like they did with the Camry) instead of the Civic, but they chose to put the IMA system on their most efficient model instead. I still think Honda should hybridize the Accord (just like I think Toyota should hybridize the Corolla), because IMO there's enough room for all 3 models (Insight, Civic hybrid, & Accord hybrid) to equally coexist within the market.
Even worse is if Toyota offered a Matrix Hybrid. The only way I see it is to have the Prius be equipped with more toys (as it is right now for 2010) and offer the Matrix with current equipment or maybe as an 4WD-i (assuming the people who typically buy Matrix AWD models are those that take it to the ski hills and stuff). The Matrix is lighter than the Prius and an electric motor in the rear will be lighter than the current V-Flex AWD system. The new Matrix was designed to handle the HSD system so they can put it on the market at any time.
A Yaris Hybrid would distant itself further from the Prius. It would be cheaper because of less equipment and it won't be attracting similar customers that would look at the Prius. The Prius would be pushing the boundaries of hybrid technology. The TCH and would-be Yaris Hybrid would just take up the slack of those who prefer to wait for "tested" technology and a cheaper price.
05-14-09, 06:50 PM
#43
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Didn't even realize that. And the Civic has a normal sedan shape!This whole thing is a marketing gimmick. All they keep stressing is how it is the hybrid for "everyone" at $20K for the stripped model. While the $21K Prius is only for the wealthy. $1K people! Actually, when gas savings is factored, the Prius is just as affordable.
05-14-09, 07:17 PM
#44
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This whole thing is a marketing gimmick. All they keep stressing is how it is the hybrid for "everyone" at $20K for the stripped model. While the $21K Prius is only for the wealthy. $1K people! Actually, when gas savings is factored, the Prius is just as affordable.
Where we will see the Prius (supposedly) compete a little better with the Hondas, price-wise, is the 2010 Prius, which still isn't out yet. Pressure from the Insight has forced Toyota to lower the 2010 Prius's starting price.....so I wouldn't call the Insight just a "marketing gimmick". If it were just a gimmick, then Toyota would ignore it......but that's not happening.
06-22-09, 09:16 AM
#45
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Well I'm glad to see consumers see it for what it was. A half-assed attempt.
https://www.autoloandaily.com/loan-n...eet-sales-goal
Honda originally expected the Insight to sell 90,000 units in the first year. In an interview with Bloomberg, John Mendel, Honda’s U.S. executive vice president, said that it looks like the Insight’s first year sales will be between 50,000 and 60,000 units. That would mean the Insight would miss its initial sales goal by about 33%.
https://www.autoloandaily.com/loan-n...eet-sales-goal
Honda originally expected the Insight to sell 90,000 units in the first year. In an interview with Bloomberg, John Mendel, Honda’s U.S. executive vice president, said that it looks like the Insight’s first year sales will be between 50,000 and 60,000 units. That would mean the Insight would miss its initial sales goal by about 33%.