Is Acura A Luxury Brand?
05-05-09, 07:30 AM
#31
Lexus Fanatic
More of the subjective tier system...........................................................................................................................................
05-05-09, 08:29 AM
#32
Super Moderator
But the LS600hL does outperform the naturally aspirated V12/W12 sedans from BMW and Audi in it's class so far, particularly in highway passing power because of the torque from the electric motor.
05-05-09, 08:41 AM
#33
Having owned both Acura and Lexus, I can attest to the fact that Acura is Tier II, and cannot compete with a Lexus. The interiors are so dissimilar and the road noise comparision is like comparing a Chevy to a Cadillac. I'll only buy Lexus for the rest of my life!
05-05-09, 08:42 AM
#34
This is quite possibly the most laughable quote that I have read since I joined this forum 5 years ago, especially in comparison to Lexus. Acura has a defined image? A more focused target?
One of the main reasons that Acura has struggled so badly in recent years is because they completely lack any sense of direction, where they belong, or who their target market should be. Between Lexus and Infiniti (Let alone MB, BMW, and Audi) they really don't fit in and have struggled endlessly to define their brand and their mission. To this day they still lack any definition or clarity in this area...SH-AWD is probably the only thing that is noteworthy about the entire brand.
Honda has tried several times, to no avail, to make the Acura brand "different" and quirky (like Honda), but upscale. They are determined to do it their way- the way of rebadging and part-sharing at every point possible- to a fault, really. Lexus and Infiniti have both had to break away from that mentality and look at their success relative to Acura ever since. Clearly, Honda is determined to make a compelling business case for Acura as a premium brand while using as many pieces from their own parts bin as possible. Unfortunately, this line of thinking is flawed and that has been proven time and time again. Cars like the NSX and S2000 have shown that Honda is one of the engineering powerhouses of the automotive industry, but then we are given cars that are as deficient as the TL or RDX. Why? Especially when they are one of the most cash-rich companies in the business world and could easily afford the required investment to actually make great luxury cars? Why?
Obviously a large part of Acura's failure is Honda's fault. They have always given the brand limited resources to retool and reformat hand-me-down platforms. As the article mentions, everything in their lineup is an Accord derivative and while there is nothing wrong with that, there are explicit limitations- namely power and performance- to this method of business. Competitors build dedicated three, four, or five platforms for different specific vehicles while Acura builds one that sees fit in an I4 family sedan that sells 350,000 units a year, all the way up to a "premium branded" 300HP AWD 7 seater utility vehicle. Yes, this is smart business engineering, but not necessarily a smart way to engineer a premium automotive brand. By design limitations, the platform that underpins the uber-successful Accord just cannot be truly willing and able to rival the 5 or 3 Series in terms of dynamics, refinement, and overall performance. Herein lies the flawed logic that Honda hand-me-downs are sufficient.
These deficiencies might be forgivable if Acura cars were engineering marvels (like the NSX and others) or if they had a high feature content and remarkable quality. At least do something great, right? Wrong. Their cars use many of the same plastics, paints, trim pieces, and technology as their lesser bretheren and are often times deficient in many other ways in comparison to their competitors. Every other luxury brand has or is about to have a hybrid model...Acura has not so much as a hybrid concept car. 6 and 7 speed automatics are the standard while some brands offer 8 speeds. Acura uses a 5 speed. The list goes on.
At the end of the day you are left with a car that is based off a Honda platform, uses several parts that are found on many other Honda cars, and that offers a minimal amount of unique content over that same Honda. At the same time, because of all of these inherent characteristics their cars are not as well built, fun to drive, powerful, or cutting edge as products from competing brands i.e. Lexus, Infiniti, BMW, etc. because of the lack of resources.
Acuras are still nice cars that do plenty of things well - and for a couple thousand people a year that is enough to sign on the dotted line and grab the keys. Many buyers of premium brands want more than just nice cars that do things well- they want performance, handling, quality, unique design and technology - all things that come with a level of engineering and investment that Honda has not, and evidently will not, put into Acura. It's sad, really. It seems as though Acura will have to completely fail for Honda to realize that the company will require significantly more time and investment to be suited for success. At that point though, a company as money-minded as Honda might consider scrapping the brand all together. Or might they just be content selling rebadged and retooled Accords for the rest of time? Who knows.
Often times we make fun of GM or Ford for penny pinching, but the Acura brand is the single greatest testament to automotive bean counting that any of us have seen or know. Seriously.
One of the main reasons that Acura has struggled so badly in recent years is because they completely lack any sense of direction, where they belong, or who their target market should be. Between Lexus and Infiniti (Let alone MB, BMW, and Audi) they really don't fit in and have struggled endlessly to define their brand and their mission. To this day they still lack any definition or clarity in this area...SH-AWD is probably the only thing that is noteworthy about the entire brand.
Honda has tried several times, to no avail, to make the Acura brand "different" and quirky (like Honda), but upscale. They are determined to do it their way- the way of rebadging and part-sharing at every point possible- to a fault, really. Lexus and Infiniti have both had to break away from that mentality and look at their success relative to Acura ever since. Clearly, Honda is determined to make a compelling business case for Acura as a premium brand while using as many pieces from their own parts bin as possible. Unfortunately, this line of thinking is flawed and that has been proven time and time again. Cars like the NSX and S2000 have shown that Honda is one of the engineering powerhouses of the automotive industry, but then we are given cars that are as deficient as the TL or RDX. Why? Especially when they are one of the most cash-rich companies in the business world and could easily afford the required investment to actually make great luxury cars? Why?
Obviously a large part of Acura's failure is Honda's fault. They have always given the brand limited resources to retool and reformat hand-me-down platforms. As the article mentions, everything in their lineup is an Accord derivative and while there is nothing wrong with that, there are explicit limitations- namely power and performance- to this method of business. Competitors build dedicated three, four, or five platforms for different specific vehicles while Acura builds one that sees fit in an I4 family sedan that sells 350,000 units a year, all the way up to a "premium branded" 300HP AWD 7 seater utility vehicle. Yes, this is smart business engineering, but not necessarily a smart way to engineer a premium automotive brand. By design limitations, the platform that underpins the uber-successful Accord just cannot be truly willing and able to rival the 5 or 3 Series in terms of dynamics, refinement, and overall performance. Herein lies the flawed logic that Honda hand-me-downs are sufficient.
These deficiencies might be forgivable if Acura cars were engineering marvels (like the NSX and others) or if they had a high feature content and remarkable quality. At least do something great, right? Wrong. Their cars use many of the same plastics, paints, trim pieces, and technology as their lesser bretheren and are often times deficient in many other ways in comparison to their competitors. Every other luxury brand has or is about to have a hybrid model...Acura has not so much as a hybrid concept car. 6 and 7 speed automatics are the standard while some brands offer 8 speeds. Acura uses a 5 speed. The list goes on.
At the end of the day you are left with a car that is based off a Honda platform, uses several parts that are found on many other Honda cars, and that offers a minimal amount of unique content over that same Honda. At the same time, because of all of these inherent characteristics their cars are not as well built, fun to drive, powerful, or cutting edge as products from competing brands i.e. Lexus, Infiniti, BMW, etc. because of the lack of resources.
Acuras are still nice cars that do plenty of things well - and for a couple thousand people a year that is enough to sign on the dotted line and grab the keys. Many buyers of premium brands want more than just nice cars that do things well- they want performance, handling, quality, unique design and technology - all things that come with a level of engineering and investment that Honda has not, and evidently will not, put into Acura. It's sad, really. It seems as though Acura will have to completely fail for Honda to realize that the company will require significantly more time and investment to be suited for success. At that point though, a company as money-minded as Honda might consider scrapping the brand all together. Or might they just be content selling rebadged and retooled Accords for the rest of time? Who knows.
Often times we make fun of GM or Ford for penny pinching, but the Acura brand is the single greatest testament to automotive bean counting that any of us have seen or know. Seriously.
05-05-09, 08:58 AM
#35
I used to own two Acura legend coupes (Auto and 6 speed MT). Back in early 90's I say Acura was one of THE luxury brand. But now they lost that reputation. It's a shame. They now have established lines for their exterior design but they got some ugly line of cars right now.
05-05-09, 09:27 AM
#36
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05-05-09, 09:47 AM
#39
Super Moderator
I do not believe you can strictly put an entire brand into Tier 1, 2, etc., it's pretty meaningless to me, I actually care more about the model you are driving.
Let's say, if you drive a Mercedes B-class, which is available here in Canada, it won't matter if Mercedes is considered Tier 1 anywhere in the world, it's not even a luxury car in my book, and if you drive an Audi S8, it's more prestigious than if you drive a non-AMG C-class Benz for example (& for me I consider it more desirable than even the C63), whether or not you consider Audi a Tier 1 brand in the U.S. or not ...
Let's say, if you drive a Mercedes B-class, which is available here in Canada, it won't matter if Mercedes is considered Tier 1 anywhere in the world, it's not even a luxury car in my book, and if you drive an Audi S8, it's more prestigious than if you drive a non-AMG C-class Benz for example (& for me I consider it more desirable than even the C63), whether or not you consider Audi a Tier 1 brand in the U.S. or not ...
05-05-09, 10:17 AM
#40
Lexus Test Driver
Actually Audi is more of a luxury brand than Lexus, Audi do not share platforms with VW like Lexus do with Toyota, Audi have been an established luxury car maker long before Lexus was even a thought on the Toyota planning board. Audi do not share engines, interior part with VW in the way that Lexus do with Toyota.
05-05-09, 10:21 AM
#41
Lexus Fanatic
The A8, A4, and A3, as I understand it, according to VW itself, share platforms with equivalent VW products...Phaeton, Passat, and Jetta/Golf. The TT is a somewhat reworked version of the Jetta/Golf platform. The Q7 is a slightly stretched version of the VW Touraeg/Porsche Cayenne platform; the Q5 the VW Tiguan's. The A5/A6, I'm not sure of.
Last edited by mmarshall; 05-05-09 at 10:25 AM.
05-05-09, 10:39 AM
#42
IMO, the only true luxury cars are Maybach, Rolls Royce, Bentley, and Aston Martin. Everything else are just mass produced cars with different quality interiors.
05-05-09, 10:42 AM
#43
Lexus Test Driver
The A8, A4, and A3, as I understand it, according to VW itself, share platforms with equivalent VW products...Phaeton, Passat, and Jetta/Golf. The TT is a somewhat reworked version of the Jetta/Golf platform. The Q7 is a slightly stretched version of the VW Touraeg/Porsche Cayenne platform; the Q5 the VW Tiguan's. The A5/A6, I'm not sure of.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_A_platform
05-05-09, 10:57 AM
#44
Guest
Posts: n/a
Every automotive company uses a Teir system. Every evaluation is done on a Tier system. Its how cars and brands are classified by executives and experts. Internal documents mention "tier" and "classes". Car magazines mention them as well.
For example, Acura and Infiniti themselves have acknowledged "they are not Tier 1 but that is where they want to be". We have multiple threads with their dealer executives stating so.
http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-10015470-48.html
The first step toward Tier 1 status is the redesigned 2009 TL sedan.
"The TL is close but not right at Tier 1," he says. "Then we will have an all-new vehicle in 2010 that's about the same level as TL. After that, we will have a sedan coming that will clearly put us in Tier 1."
Dan Bonawitz, vice president for corporate planning and logistics at American Honda Motor Co.
http://subscribers.wardsauto.com/ar/..._years_become/
DETROIT – Top Nissan Motor Co. Ltd. executives admit the company’s Infiniti luxury unit is not among BMW, Mercedes-Benz and Lexus as current “Tier 1” luxury brands in the U.S.
Guys Bently/Maybach etc is not a Tier. Those are super saloons. They are like exotics, in their own class.
Tier 1- BMW/Benz/Lexus/Audi (V-8, RWD, true D-class flagships)
(now in America/Worldwide public perceptions may have Audi/Lexus swap places)
Tier II-CAddy, Lincoln, Infiniti, Volvo (V-8s offered, no D class flagship)
Tier III- Acura, Saab, Buick. etc (mostly FWD, V-6, small lineup offered)
As Andrew stated, some cars within a brand do not fall into that "Tier" (his Benz A/B class example is on point). Concerning Audi, while America is not overally receptive to them, their lineup is by far Tier I, from the S4, S5 to R8 to W-12 A8.
I hope this helps everyone.
05-05-09, 11:11 AM
#45
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I think that eventhough they have all these tier separation but when people shop it's all over the place.
Like if you are looking for a sport compact one might look at IS,3 series, Infiinit G, Caddy. But when people look up for a luxury then it might be Lexus GS, BMW 5-series, Acura RL, Caddy.
One can say that the brand belong in different tier but if you dig down lower and each car is in different tier itself.
Just my though
Like if you are looking for a sport compact one might look at IS,3 series, Infiinit G, Caddy. But when people look up for a luxury then it might be Lexus GS, BMW 5-series, Acura RL, Caddy.
One can say that the brand belong in different tier but if you dig down lower and each car is in different tier itself.
Just my though