Lately, I'm struggling...
05-07-09, 12:43 PM
#16
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Well the problem is not that the competition has caught up, the problem is that Lexus has dropped the ball. Interiors of all new Lexus models are pretty lousy, except maybe for the LS460, and even that is still not as good as the LS430, especially LS430 UL.
See, if I'm gonna have to deal with cheap looking interior, might as well do it in a fun to drive BMW.
See, if I'm gonna have to deal with cheap looking interior, might as well do it in a fun to drive BMW.
The fact is Lexus interiors have changed for the better/worse and again, the competition has caught up. We should thank Lexus (and Audi) b/c interiors used to SUCK, period. Furthermore, I'm a young guy- 21 and almost out of college. When I talk about cars with my friends it's about the Audi S5, 335i, G37, or the new E class. Being a Lexus enthusiast I try to throw something in about the IS 350 or new ISc and the response is always, "oh...yeah. I guess." It's like Lexus merely exists and is often forgotten when people discuss cars that "turn them on" and that they are passionate about. What is Lexus going to do when the generation that has aspired to own products that are different from theirs finally has the buying power to walk into the showroom? At my age I obviously can't afford a new Lexus but the time to plant the seed is NOW because at some point I will. People talk a lot about the halo effect, which is part of the problem for Lexus. The other half is the excitement, or lack thereof.
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LS, ES, RX
Which are 3 solid cars but also 3 staid ones for the most part. The IS/GS are simply overlooked. NO ONE knows about the IS-F or IS F sport parts outside of hardcore guys. Lexus owners themselves don't even know you can mod the IS/GS etc to enchance handling etc.
The odd thing is Lexus is pushing with hybrids but IMO their marketing has been awful. I've been asked more times "does it park itself" and "so where do you plug it in" than anything else
The FLIPSIDE is Lexus is doing well, STILL. People do want luxury. You make the point about people saying "doesn't drive like a 5". Well there are tons of people that say "doesn't break like a 5" and prefer worse handling car in exchange for no headaches.
05-07-09, 12:50 PM
#17
My time working at the Lexus dealership (around technicians) and Southern Area Headquarters (around field techs and product specialists) answered my question about why the interior materials changed from being soft to the touch, to harder.
If you guys might recall, 4-5 years ago there was a big shift in the industry away from oil-based exterior paints to water-based ones. This was because the gasses and fumes given off by oil-based paints in the painting process was deemed harmful to the environment.
Much of the same has taken place with interiors. Traditionally, and by that I mean pre-2005ish, almost all interior panels were made of vinyl blends- thus being softer to the touch. It was then discovered that the molding and casting process of vinyl released harmful emissions and gasses into the atmosphere so just like paint, automakers sought new alternatives. The most popular solution has been plastic based blends which has created a whole new set of troubles for companies- mainly rattles. We've already discussed that vinyl is softer and more forgiving to the touch and this goes for the components that we can't see. Plastics expand and "give" less leaving more open spaces for pieces to rub against one another or vibrate. Welcome to 2006- the year of Lexus rattles
So essentially the new plastic blends have been largely to blame for harder-to-touch interior panels as well as rattles. Manufacturers have been experimenting with what types of plastics to blend and use and some have been more successful than others, but this movement (away from vinyls, towards plastics) has been joined by almost all auto makers and thats why you can cruise through Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Acura, etc forums and see complaints of rattles in almost all newer models. Lexus simply needs to get their formula straight- for the sake of the rattles AND tactile feel.
If you guys might recall, 4-5 years ago there was a big shift in the industry away from oil-based exterior paints to water-based ones. This was because the gasses and fumes given off by oil-based paints in the painting process was deemed harmful to the environment.
Much of the same has taken place with interiors. Traditionally, and by that I mean pre-2005ish, almost all interior panels were made of vinyl blends- thus being softer to the touch. It was then discovered that the molding and casting process of vinyl released harmful emissions and gasses into the atmosphere so just like paint, automakers sought new alternatives. The most popular solution has been plastic based blends which has created a whole new set of troubles for companies- mainly rattles. We've already discussed that vinyl is softer and more forgiving to the touch and this goes for the components that we can't see. Plastics expand and "give" less leaving more open spaces for pieces to rub against one another or vibrate. Welcome to 2006- the year of Lexus rattles
So essentially the new plastic blends have been largely to blame for harder-to-touch interior panels as well as rattles. Manufacturers have been experimenting with what types of plastics to blend and use and some have been more successful than others, but this movement (away from vinyls, towards plastics) has been joined by almost all auto makers and thats why you can cruise through Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Acura, etc forums and see complaints of rattles in almost all newer models. Lexus simply needs to get their formula straight- for the sake of the rattles AND tactile feel.
05-07-09, 12:57 PM
#18
Lexus Test Driver
When Lexus was 1st introduced back in the 80s, it had the best quality interior even compare to the Germans. I agree with some of the above post, its not the competition that have caught up but it is Lexus that have cut back. All these years of cost cutting will eventually catch up to them. I am sure the Germans have cut back on their interiors too, but it doesnt show as much as Lexus.
I have been driving Lexus for more than 10 years and have own one after one with less and less quality. Everything Lexus use to be great at, interior, cabin noise fits and finish are being challedge by the Germans. Dont look behind you Lexus, they are catching up fast.
I have been driving Lexus for more than 10 years and have own one after one with less and less quality. Everything Lexus use to be great at, interior, cabin noise fits and finish are being challedge by the Germans. Dont look behind you Lexus, they are catching up fast.
05-07-09, 01:08 PM
#19
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First off, I am admittedly a dash stroker. I think mmarshall and FKL are maybe the only other two people who come to mind who obsess over interiors like I do- right down to the gaps between panels, grain in the interior, and the sound the door makes when it shuts..
First off, I am admittedly a dash stroker. I think mmarshall and FKL are maybe the only other two people who come to mind who obsess over interiors like I do- right down to the gaps between panels, grain in the interior, and the sound the door makes when it shuts..
Simply put, I feel like Lexus has slipped-substantially in some instances- in this area from where they once stood and interior quality has always been a Lexus core competency and high point for me. Here are my qualms:
1) Flat, shapeless, nearly-monotone hollow feeling door panels.
When you go from this, with plenty of wood and stitched leather:
to this, with a wallet sized patch of wood and hard plastic:
There is a problem, IMO. Especially considering the price increase.
1) Flat, shapeless, nearly-monotone hollow feeling door panels.
They showed up first on the ES 350 and then went into the LX, then RX, and now the HS. Lexus cars have always had somewhat decadent interiors with rich woods and colors abound. Every Lexus, except for maybe the IS300, has followed this rule. Now the door panels feel like they are made from rubbermaid containers with vinyl stretched over them. Knock on a door panel in the ES 350 or RX 350, even LX 570, and it sounds conspicuously hollow and thin. Additionally, why are the so flat? What happened to handles or pulls that had a little design to them? The RX and HS are by far the worst with no wood trim on the panel itself (yes, on the arm rest) and nearly monotone.
See the door panels here:
2) Wheres the wood?[INDENT]As I mentioned above, Lexus interiors have always been praised for lavish woods but evidently the interiors of most Lexus products are being de-forested at a rapid pace. The LX may be the most disappointing to me in this regard, with the RX and ES following closely behind. If I dish out $90K for a luxury SUV it better have enough wood on the interior to build a raft out of- yet the LX has far less than the old 470 it replaced. I don't mean wood all up the dash, around the nav, and around the vents like some cheap dash kit but I DO mean artfully worked into door panels, center consoles, some parts of the dash and in other well thought out, detailed locations. While not everyone likes wood I think it should be at least offered in all luxury cars and the amounts that Lexus is offering have become less, less, and less. The LS 460 somehow got away with a well-wooded interior but many of the other products are shedding wood at an alarming rate, IMO. See the door panels here:
When you go from this, with plenty of wood and stitched leather:
to this, with a wallet sized patch of wood and hard plastic:
There is a problem, IMO. Especially considering the price increase.
Double stitched leather absent in the LX570 and almost all Lexus models.
LX470 uses much better grade of material on everything below the belt line. LX570 uses are harder plastic on the bottom panels. LX570 reminds me very much of Avalon materials.
Compare the rear interior wheel humps. LX570 uses hard plastic near armrests whereas the LX470 uses the same A,B,C pillar material from cloth headliner to cover the plastic.
LX570 uses pure plastic grab handles while the LX470 was leather wrapped.
05-07-09, 01:09 PM
#20
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Is Lexus becoming the new Mercedes? This is a question that I have been asking my self for a while now. When the German’s the Brits and Americans were making mediocre bad quality car's Lexus stepped up stole the torch and made a name for its self. The competition has been creeping up. Lexus could soon be in a Mercedes like scenario. Quality is not #1 in America anymore; they don’t have the most competitive line up. The LS like the S class will always have top quality craftsmanship. But the lower model's es gs is rx gl lx will have corner’s cut to keep the flag ship afloat. In the mean time Merc will be back to its former glory and Lexus will enjoy the process of making quality and reliability synonymous with its name and endure what Mercedes has been enduring for the past decade.
I know that this sounds a bit farfetched but than again if you said that story in the 80's about Mercedes it wouldn’t sound right too.
I know that this sounds a bit farfetched but than again if you said that story in the 80's about Mercedes it wouldn’t sound right too.
05-07-09, 01:09 PM
#21
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I agree with you 100%!!
I got an ES350 for rental and it was like driving a Camry. The interior felt like my Yukons interior.
Now to the story about Real Housewives of Atlanta. Who new Big Daddy was on CL. LOL!
I got an ES350 for rental and it was like driving a Camry. The interior felt like my Yukons interior.
Now to the story about Real Housewives of Atlanta. Who new Big Daddy was on CL. LOL!
05-07-09, 01:25 PM
#23
Lexus Fanatic
Yes, I see some valid concerns about interior finishes, etc.
But bringing up the ES and RX in the discussion leads me to bring up the following:
From a car enthusiast's perspective, the ES and RX are largely badge-engineered Camry and Highlander Toyotas. So when I drive them I tend to expect the not quite luxury interior and the bland driving experience too.
But bringing up the ES and RX in the discussion leads me to bring up the following:
From a car enthusiast's perspective, the ES and RX are largely badge-engineered Camry and Highlander Toyotas. So when I drive them I tend to expect the not quite luxury interior and the bland driving experience too.
05-07-09, 01:32 PM
#24
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Yes, I see some valid concerns about interior finishes, etc.
But bringing up the ES and RX in the discussion leads me to bring up the following:
From a car enthusiast's perspective, the ES and RX are largely badge-engineered Camry and Highlander Toyotas. So when I drive them I tend to expect the not quite luxury interior and the bland driving experience too.
But bringing up the ES and RX in the discussion leads me to bring up the following:
From a car enthusiast's perspective, the ES and RX are largely badge-engineered Camry and Highlander Toyotas. So when I drive them I tend to expect the not quite luxury interior and the bland driving experience too.
I have to say though, the new RX, while full of plastics and less wood, seemed much better put together than the last model.
05-07-09, 01:54 PM
#25
Yes, I see some valid concerns about interior finishes, etc.
But bringing up the ES and RX in the discussion leads me to bring up the following:
From a car enthusiast's perspective, the ES and RX are largely badge-engineered Camry and Highlander Toyotas. So when I drive them I tend to expect the not quite luxury interior and the bland driving experience too.
But bringing up the ES and RX in the discussion leads me to bring up the following:
From a car enthusiast's perspective, the ES and RX are largely badge-engineered Camry and Highlander Toyotas. So when I drive them I tend to expect the not quite luxury interior and the bland driving experience too.
Even thinking about it historically- what two cars have had more frequent maintenance problems than the rest of the line? Both the RX and ES were prone to transmission hesitations and engine sludge, while the ES has had an awful time with transmission flares. Funny...what Toyota car also had those problems?
The only other model that I can think of that has had a widely publicized defect is the LS with wind noise, and as far as I have been told, that is a design flaw with the shape of the roof and the wind flow. It still has yet to really be corrected.The RX and ES are great products for simple minded buyers who only want comfort, convenience, and status with some luxury features. For people really wanting more than that, neither of these two really cut it. This is especially disappionting because with the RX as an in-betweener in size, Lexus won't create an SUV below it and continues to delay one above it. You can't really blame them since the RX sells in ridiculous volumes and is a cheap vehicle to engineer and sell, but at the end of the day, it is unfortunate for the people who DO care.
Still, the GX is the only Lexus SUV that I'd want to own.
Last edited by MPLexus301; 05-07-09 at 01:59 PM.
05-07-09, 02:56 PM
#26
Lexus Fanatic
btw, I'm not knocking the ES or RX just because they have limited appeal to the enthusiast. The interior is relatively superficial compared to the mundane Toyota hardware underneath. And being fancy Toyotas, they are still very good cars.
These 2 cars are sold at good volumes with decent margins. So there is a strong business case for both of them.
These 2 cars are sold at good volumes with decent margins. So there is a strong business case for both of them.
05-07-09, 03:01 PM
#27
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Through my experience with Lexus at both a dealer and corporate level I have met many people who are engineers and product specialists at varying levels and for different products. EVERY (and I mean every single one) of them will tell you they would never buy a Camry-based Lexus because the entire R&D and engineering process is 100% different- not solely because they're cheaper, but mostly because these cars essentially start life as a Camry. The disparity between the IS and ES is really quite huge when you start taking them apart and consider how they were built, designed, and engineered, not even considering their intended purpose (luxury ES vs. sporty IS).
Even thinking about it historically- what two cars have had more frequent maintenance problems than the rest of the line? Both the RX and ES were prone to transmission hesitations and engine sludge, while the ES has had an awful time with transmission flares. Funny...what Toyota car also had those problems? The only other model that I can think of that has had a widely publicized defect is the LS with wind noise, and as far as I have been told, that is a design flaw with the shape of the roof and the wind flow. It still has yet to really be corrected.
The RX and ES are great products for simple minded buyers who only want comfort, convenience, and status with some luxury features. For people really wanting more than that, neither of these two really cut it. This is especially disappionting because with the RX as an in-betweener in size, Lexus won't create an SUV below it and continues to delay one above it. You can't really blame them since the RX sells in ridiculous volumes and is a cheap vehicle to engineer and sell, but at the end of the day, it is unfortunate for the people who DO care.
Still, the GX is the only Lexus SUV that I'd want to own.
Even thinking about it historically- what two cars have had more frequent maintenance problems than the rest of the line? Both the RX and ES were prone to transmission hesitations and engine sludge, while the ES has had an awful time with transmission flares. Funny...what Toyota car also had those problems?
The only other model that I can think of that has had a widely publicized defect is the LS with wind noise, and as far as I have been told, that is a design flaw with the shape of the roof and the wind flow. It still has yet to really be corrected.The RX and ES are great products for simple minded buyers who only want comfort, convenience, and status with some luxury features. For people really wanting more than that, neither of these two really cut it. This is especially disappionting because with the RX as an in-betweener in size, Lexus won't create an SUV below it and continues to delay one above it. You can't really blame them since the RX sells in ridiculous volumes and is a cheap vehicle to engineer and sell, but at the end of the day, it is unfortunate for the people who DO care.
Still, the GX is the only Lexus SUV that I'd want to own.
You are right about the RX and ES being different than the rest of the line. Toyota engineers the LX/LC, Prado/GX/4runner, LS, IS, SC, GS, Prius in a different way than the Sequioa, Avalon, Tundra, Camry etc.
Most of the Japanese built Toyota's/Lexus models share design elements and parts. These designs and parts are different from the USA manufacturing and design.
The 1st gen Sequioa/Tundras were designed by Japanese engineers which were put together in the USA using half Japanese parts/US parts. Early 00-04 Tundra/Sequoia were Japanese engines/trannys and major components. Later models moved to the US builds.
IMO cars like the Supra, 1st gen Highlander, Land Cruiser, Prius are no different in build than the Lexus models. The difference is apparent when Toyota designs a car using US engineers compared to Japanese engineers.
The closest I have ever seen Toyota USA design a vehicle to Toyota Japan standards is the current Toyota Avalon. Where the previous generations were design in Japan, the current Avalon was design all in the USA and it comes on par the Japanese designed Toyotas. I can't say that about the current Tundra or Sequoia. Those are disasters.
Last edited by pagemaster; 05-07-09 at 03:17 PM.
05-07-09, 03:54 PM
#29
If I was in the market for a luxury vehicle I'd prefer piano black panels or soft leather/alcantara wrapped panels or EXTREMELY dark wood. I don't really care for the wood grain look. I think there definitely should be some separation of the same colored plastic panels but I'd prefer something different than wood. Just my opinion.
05-07-09, 04:00 PM
#30
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In no particular order.
The standard for really cheapening interior (and most all build quality) still resides with MB as far as I am concerned. After they made that announcement that they felt they "overengineered" their cars they got as out of touch with their customer as anyone.
Audi has been under the same constraints in costs as everyone but I have to say, overall, they have not cheapened interiors much, if at all. And I totally agree on the Acura RL, one of the best. The car has other problems, but not the materials and workmanship of the interior.
I have nothing with reducing costs but Lexus has chosen some very occupant noticeable places to do it. Stupid. I have seen some issues with certain bimmers as well but I would still think that bimmer has had less fall in this area than Lexus.
The most loyal Toyota/Lexus customer I know is my wife who values reliability above all else. Even she is not talking about getting a Toyota or Lexus for her next car.
The standard for really cheapening interior (and most all build quality) still resides with MB as far as I am concerned. After they made that announcement that they felt they "overengineered" their cars they got as out of touch with their customer as anyone.
Audi has been under the same constraints in costs as everyone but I have to say, overall, they have not cheapened interiors much, if at all. And I totally agree on the Acura RL, one of the best. The car has other problems, but not the materials and workmanship of the interior.
I have nothing with reducing costs but Lexus has chosen some very occupant noticeable places to do it. Stupid. I have seen some issues with certain bimmers as well but I would still think that bimmer has had less fall in this area than Lexus.
The most loyal Toyota/Lexus customer I know is my wife who values reliability above all else. Even she is not talking about getting a Toyota or Lexus for her next car.