Lately, I'm struggling...
08-17-09, 01:29 PM
#91
I'm gonna agree to disagree vociferously, and echo some of 1SICKLEX's thoughts here. Please excuse me for being a little blunt.
Some people here really, really don't like Lexus' designs lately. We get it! They want to see radical departures, in-your-face styling cues, etc. Most of the guys here are enthusiasts, and that's why. But Lexus has never catered solely to enthusiasts and never will. To some that's not what they want, but to most buyers that's fine. And more to the point, that's what makes Lexus successful--catering to a wide range of luxury buyers. Sure it could help to get some more dynamism, and we've seen that. They will hopefully not go further into polarization.
Respectully, I disagree. With Lexus winning consumer surveys on interior design, repeating results, I'd say the vast majority of luxury buyers appreciate and in fact laud Lexus interiors. On that subject:
- The HS interior with its floating console and features have been praised. Having sat inside, and felt the quality materials and its ergonomic design, my dominant impression was one of a high-tech cockpit. It's like no other luxury car interior on the market, futuristic and a delight to be in. Remote Touch HAS simplified things quite a bit -- compare to the pop-up console interior of the IS 300. There's not copious amounts of wood--a criticism by some--but when you sit inside the HS and realize its sense of purpose, the environmental/tech hybrid vehicle, it makes sense. More wood belongs in a more traditional luxury vehicle. The HS has technology galore, and new cutting-edge materials, all ergonomically designed. It differentiates the vehicle quite well - key in this position. I just wish the outside reflected that in equally a stylish manner.
- Door panel design. This is where calling L-finesse a 'dud' is wildly off the mark, particularly when it produced the most interesting door designs for the LS, GS, and IS to date. Each has a specific aesthetic and flow, which is beyond what you see in other vehicles. Can you imagine the flow of a BMW door with that side handle? Or the XF's square shapes? None. Lexus.jp has the details on how L-finesse has infused Lexus doors with a story, and it's more than marketing, it's real.
Now, on the RX door panels, I have found them to be quite nice in fact, so I disagree yet again here. Sure, they are simplistic compared to the LS/GS/IS in design, but I appreciate the flared sweep of the upper panel and the curving shape of the armrest/handle, plus the 'waterfall pool' wood trim. With the two-tone leather or without, I like it better than the traditional looking, horizontal bar-shaped 2RX door. As a reflection on the 2RX doors themselves - where the construction was good, if mass-market; the 3RX exhibits an improvement with more stylistic cues; the fewer tightly-fitting parts may reduce vibration and rattles. For the HS doors, I have a similar positive feeling, with the sharper angles being well-suited to the design aesthetic and shape of the car. Both door panels give me a sense of feeling and purpose, and the closest analogy is Zen design, which influenced their creation.
However, for the ES doors, that is where I am not forgiving. A simplistic 'C' curve from front to rear doors, single-piece molded storage tray--this is too close to Camry. It does also remind me of the door panels on the 2ES and 3ES, a nonetheless winning formula which likely affected the 5ES. Cost-cutting -- everyone does it, and Lexus has done it on their volume vehicles. I posted a thread when the 5ES came out, contrasting its doors with the LS/GS/IS. To me, the RX and HS doors have managed to simplify components while creating a new and stylish look, while the ES has been able to do only the former. Hopefully the 6ES will do better.
Disagree again, for the most part. L-finesse has differentiated the vehicles, and although a few have their opposing opinion, IMO the LS, GS, IS, and ES look like no Toyota-branded vehicle. I'd say the RX looks most like the prior RX, which the Venza does seem to share some cues with. The LX has always looked like the LC. Now, the HS has got tongues wagging about similarities to a Corolla, and sure if you size adjust the pictures there are similarities (and I'm not a fan of the HS styling as of now), but in person the HS cannot be mistaken for a Corolla.
Now I'm a fan of Lexus, and naturally could be accused of defending them reflexively. But that's not what I am doing here. IMHO L-finesse has been an overall success; the door panels on the RX and HS are just fine, the ES doors and interior could be improved; as could the HS and LX exterior designs; the HS grille is actually pretty good, nowhere near 'plasticky', it appears chrome. Some on here have hated the HS from the start; have wanted the RX center console to lose its sinuous curve (and then turn around and want more character from the interior), etc etc. Sure, they could stand to differentiate more from non-luxury Japanese brands, but to become a cookie-cutter with one dominant look across the range (Audi for instance), rather than a variety of shapes with some similarities, is not Lexus' style do date and I hope it remains that way.
And no, the LF-A isn't going to be rushed out just because the internet 'buzz' needs to be kept up; as rominl has posted, this isn't a 1 vs. 1 thing where the car must beat all comers in all areas, rather those with the $$$ buy multiple exotics, and as Dave600hL has confirmed, those who actually have the $$$ to buy the car, would prefer it be done right. Imagine if the LS 400 was rushed out in 1986 instead of 1989? Similarly, other companies' redesign cycles are shorter, but quality, status longevity suffer.
What we get here is a lot of hand-wringing about how Lexus is failing, etc., fed largely by the enthusiast media. A slight dip to #2 in sales (yet #1 in monthly sales again now) and they're all piling on about Lexus has lost its way. They haven't. By contrast, Infiniti has dropped in sales more than anyone save Acura and they don't have internet mobs banging on their doors. Moreover, this idea of a revolution ignores branding realities. A sudden change in direction alienates loyal customers. Why does Jaguar do that? Because their approach isn't working, their sales collapsed. Lexus has kept its eye on the ball and its working. The biggest problem at Lexus isn't design, it's a lack of a wide enough product range IMO. That's what they're focused on, rightfully so IMO, as well as maintaining their benchmark quality.
Same here.
It seems that the forum has gotten its share of Debbie Downer posts lately. To sum up that frame of mind, I think this post is particularly illuminating.
As they say, misery loves company. There's a reason why many have noticed the negativity from a few posters, who have amplified their opinions on this forum, drowning out the individual model owners who are quite pleased with their vehicles.
Ultimately, PhillipMSPT summed up Lexus design in a thoughtful way that I think is worth considering:
Some describe Lexus as having conservatism as its core, which has both its virtues and its pitfalls. However, I would echo (the then worth paying for) C&D's review of the 1990 LS 400, which said that the dominant theme of the Lexus design was correctness. This echoes through today, and it is that quality that attracts the practical moneyed set, the perfectionist, and the rational buyer.
Breakthrough! Catharsis! You've been holding on to Lexus' winning attributes, but are disenchanted with its latest visual aspects. It's a sign of your appreciation and concern for the brand that you've posted these interesting but dissatisfied threads. It's clear you care about Lexus to the point you want them to consider your suggestions. This forum has seen the unfolding thought processes, and it has come up to this point.
As your posts have indicated, I think you have outgrown Lexus as far as your expectations for the direction a brand should take. Like your other thread mentioned, it's time to peel off the Circle-L on the piggy bank and put an M logo on it. Infiniti's approach has gotten the enthusiast crowd's admiration, but a third of Lexus' sales. I say, what Lexus is doing has worked for them, and they should continue to hone that approach; what Infiniti has done has worked so far as reviewers and enthusiast chatter is concerned, and should that be your cup of tea, so be it. Whatever makes you happy.
But I for one have had my fill of "lately I'm struggling..." because I'm not. Rather, I'm interested in seeing how the CTh will advance Lexus Europe, what the next generation of hybrid technology will bring, how the Remote Touch system will et implemented in a sedan interior, what the LF-A turns out to be, whether the LF-A, IS-F, and other Lexus performance attributes filter to ther est of the lineup, whether the 3RX's added refinement and 'true Lexus' qualities make it further into the line's new entry-luxury models, what the next GS will be like, what new luxury technologies Lexus will add in addition to its traditional strengths, etc. etc. So I will likely not have much more to say on this topic. It's been an interesting read nonetheless, but the rabble-rousing by some negative posters does not reflect what I hear from customers at the dealerships I visit, or from my research in reviews and other forums, and discussions with Lexus personnel. Naturally, there are diverse opinions, but IMO the overall direction Lexus is on has a positive track.
Some people here really, really don't like Lexus' designs lately. We get it! They want to see radical departures, in-your-face styling cues, etc. Most of the guys here are enthusiasts, and that's why. But Lexus has never catered solely to enthusiasts and never will. To some that's not what they want, but to most buyers that's fine. And more to the point, that's what makes Lexus successful--catering to a wide range of luxury buyers. Sure it could help to get some more dynamism, and we've seen that. They will hopefully not go further into polarization.
- The HS interior with its floating console and features have been praised. Having sat inside, and felt the quality materials and its ergonomic design, my dominant impression was one of a high-tech cockpit. It's like no other luxury car interior on the market, futuristic and a delight to be in. Remote Touch HAS simplified things quite a bit -- compare to the pop-up console interior of the IS 300. There's not copious amounts of wood--a criticism by some--but when you sit inside the HS and realize its sense of purpose, the environmental/tech hybrid vehicle, it makes sense. More wood belongs in a more traditional luxury vehicle. The HS has technology galore, and new cutting-edge materials, all ergonomically designed. It differentiates the vehicle quite well - key in this position. I just wish the outside reflected that in equally a stylish manner.
- Door panel design. This is where calling L-finesse a 'dud' is wildly off the mark, particularly when it produced the most interesting door designs for the LS, GS, and IS to date. Each has a specific aesthetic and flow, which is beyond what you see in other vehicles. Can you imagine the flow of a BMW door with that side handle? Or the XF's square shapes? None. Lexus.jp has the details on how L-finesse has infused Lexus doors with a story, and it's more than marketing, it's real.
Now, on the RX door panels, I have found them to be quite nice in fact, so I disagree yet again here. Sure, they are simplistic compared to the LS/GS/IS in design, but I appreciate the flared sweep of the upper panel and the curving shape of the armrest/handle, plus the 'waterfall pool' wood trim. With the two-tone leather or without, I like it better than the traditional looking, horizontal bar-shaped 2RX door. As a reflection on the 2RX doors themselves - where the construction was good, if mass-market; the 3RX exhibits an improvement with more stylistic cues; the fewer tightly-fitting parts may reduce vibration and rattles. For the HS doors, I have a similar positive feeling, with the sharper angles being well-suited to the design aesthetic and shape of the car. Both door panels give me a sense of feeling and purpose, and the closest analogy is Zen design, which influenced their creation.
However, for the ES doors, that is where I am not forgiving. A simplistic 'C' curve from front to rear doors, single-piece molded storage tray--this is too close to Camry. It does also remind me of the door panels on the 2ES and 3ES, a nonetheless winning formula which likely affected the 5ES. Cost-cutting -- everyone does it, and Lexus has done it on their volume vehicles. I posted a thread when the 5ES came out, contrasting its doors with the LS/GS/IS. To me, the RX and HS doors have managed to simplify components while creating a new and stylish look, while the ES has been able to do only the former. Hopefully the 6ES will do better.
Now I'm a fan of Lexus, and naturally could be accused of defending them reflexively. But that's not what I am doing here. IMHO L-finesse has been an overall success; the door panels on the RX and HS are just fine, the ES doors and interior could be improved; as could the HS and LX exterior designs; the HS grille is actually pretty good, nowhere near 'plasticky', it appears chrome. Some on here have hated the HS from the start; have wanted the RX center console to lose its sinuous curve (and then turn around and want more character from the interior), etc etc. Sure, they could stand to differentiate more from non-luxury Japanese brands, but to become a cookie-cutter with one dominant look across the range (Audi for instance), rather than a variety of shapes with some similarities, is not Lexus' style do date and I hope it remains that way.
And no, the LF-A isn't going to be rushed out just because the internet 'buzz' needs to be kept up; as rominl has posted, this isn't a 1 vs. 1 thing where the car must beat all comers in all areas, rather those with the $$$ buy multiple exotics, and as Dave600hL has confirmed, those who actually have the $$$ to buy the car, would prefer it be done right. Imagine if the LS 400 was rushed out in 1986 instead of 1989? Similarly, other companies' redesign cycles are shorter, but quality, status longevity suffer.
What we get here is a lot of hand-wringing about how Lexus is failing, etc., fed largely by the enthusiast media. A slight dip to #2 in sales (yet #1 in monthly sales again now) and they're all piling on about Lexus has lost its way. They haven't. By contrast, Infiniti has dropped in sales more than anyone save Acura and they don't have internet mobs banging on their doors. Moreover, this idea of a revolution ignores branding realities. A sudden change in direction alienates loyal customers. Why does Jaguar do that? Because their approach isn't working, their sales collapsed. Lexus has kept its eye on the ball and its working. The biggest problem at Lexus isn't design, it's a lack of a wide enough product range IMO. That's what they're focused on, rightfully so IMO, as well as maintaining their benchmark quality.
Originally Posted by IS-SV
I'm not struggling too much with Lexus designs, and I do like the LS, IS, GS (in that order) very much from a styling standpoint.
Originally Posted by MPLexus301
I got to thinking about dunnojack's thread
Ultimately, PhillipMSPT summed up Lexus design in a thoughtful way that I think is worth considering:
My perspective:
Lexus has been doing a lot of "experimenting" with design. I don't think they are trying to "find" themselves; I believe they are creating variances in design that delineate the sport versus luxury versus hybrid vehicles in their line up.
There is a clear and concise Japanese aesthetic when molding each and every Lexus. There is a simplicity to each line, yet it depicts movement and visual interest. For a luxury marque, they have an understanding that the general market of luxury car buyers (read old rich folk) want a subtle statement. For some, it's too subtle. For most, it gets the job done.
But in conjunction with design, there is functionality. Lexus has been very superb in creating ergonomic cars with easy access and viewing of everything inside the cabin. The recent asymmetric designs of the ES350, RX350/450h, and the LX570 all encompass the driver with what they need/want. Again, it may not win everyone's hearts, but it does address what the driver really needs.
For myself, I have always been a bit "cold" when first seeing Lexus' designs on photo or in print. It seems plain and uninspired. However, upon seeing it in person and in motion, my outlook changes immediately. There is visual balance in size, heft, and weight to the cars. There is a radiance to pearl/metallic surfaces, further enhancing the textures and tension in each sheet of metal. The interiors "feel" like no other interior; the tactile sensation of every bit of plastic, leather, and wood all create interest. The lighting is somewhat theatrical, yet unobtrusive. The feel of the car while driving is signature; it's serene and comforting.
I doubt that a forum like ours (which is dominated by young mostly-single male enthusiasts) truly parallel the majority of Lexus buyers. Lexus' designs are not meant to be spectacular and groundbreaking. It's charming and conservative.
It may not be everyone's cup of tea, but it's a pretty good cup of tea nonetheless.
Lexus has been doing a lot of "experimenting" with design. I don't think they are trying to "find" themselves; I believe they are creating variances in design that delineate the sport versus luxury versus hybrid vehicles in their line up.
There is a clear and concise Japanese aesthetic when molding each and every Lexus. There is a simplicity to each line, yet it depicts movement and visual interest. For a luxury marque, they have an understanding that the general market of luxury car buyers (read old rich folk) want a subtle statement. For some, it's too subtle. For most, it gets the job done.
But in conjunction with design, there is functionality. Lexus has been very superb in creating ergonomic cars with easy access and viewing of everything inside the cabin. The recent asymmetric designs of the ES350, RX350/450h, and the LX570 all encompass the driver with what they need/want. Again, it may not win everyone's hearts, but it does address what the driver really needs.
For myself, I have always been a bit "cold" when first seeing Lexus' designs on photo or in print. It seems plain and uninspired. However, upon seeing it in person and in motion, my outlook changes immediately. There is visual balance in size, heft, and weight to the cars. There is a radiance to pearl/metallic surfaces, further enhancing the textures and tension in each sheet of metal. The interiors "feel" like no other interior; the tactile sensation of every bit of plastic, leather, and wood all create interest. The lighting is somewhat theatrical, yet unobtrusive. The feel of the car while driving is signature; it's serene and comforting.
I doubt that a forum like ours (which is dominated by young mostly-single male enthusiasts) truly parallel the majority of Lexus buyers. Lexus' designs are not meant to be spectacular and groundbreaking. It's charming and conservative.
It may not be everyone's cup of tea, but it's a pretty good cup of tea nonetheless.
Originally Posted by MPLexus301
Maybe I am just "outgrowing" Lexus. My hoping that the company will become somewhat revolutionary as opposed to evolutionary is probably a long shot pipedream. I don't know that a 22 year old soon-to-be college graduate is what they're gunning for anyway.
Truth be told, if another brand had the same quality/reliability of Lexus I would probably start to lean in that direction, but nobody does.
Even despite their boring designs they're still the best combination of luxury, quality, and reliability and for that reason I cannot quite leave. Performance and styling would round out my "top 5" with the aformentioned three characteristics, and I really cannot abandon those to go after something with more performance and style. I really don't like the stark and cold design of German interiors, even though I do love how they drive. I love the reliability, dependability, and quality of Lexus, even though I am starting to hate how they look.
Truth be told, if another brand had the same quality/reliability of Lexus I would probably start to lean in that direction, but nobody does.
Even despite their boring designs they're still the best combination of luxury, quality, and reliability and for that reason I cannot quite leave. Performance and styling would round out my "top 5" with the aformentioned three characteristics, and I really cannot abandon those to go after something with more performance and style. I really don't like the stark and cold design of German interiors, even though I do love how they drive. I love the reliability, dependability, and quality of Lexus, even though I am starting to hate how they look.
As your posts have indicated, I think you have outgrown Lexus as far as your expectations for the direction a brand should take. Like your other thread mentioned, it's time to peel off the Circle-L on the piggy bank and put an M logo on it. Infiniti's approach has gotten the enthusiast crowd's admiration, but a third of Lexus' sales. I say, what Lexus is doing has worked for them, and they should continue to hone that approach; what Infiniti has done has worked so far as reviewers and enthusiast chatter is concerned, and should that be your cup of tea, so be it. Whatever makes you happy.
But I for one have had my fill of "lately I'm struggling..." because I'm not. Rather, I'm interested in seeing how the CTh will advance Lexus Europe, what the next generation of hybrid technology will bring, how the Remote Touch system will et implemented in a sedan interior, what the LF-A turns out to be, whether the LF-A, IS-F, and other Lexus performance attributes filter to ther est of the lineup, whether the 3RX's added refinement and 'true Lexus' qualities make it further into the line's new entry-luxury models, what the next GS will be like, what new luxury technologies Lexus will add in addition to its traditional strengths, etc. etc. So I will likely not have much more to say on this topic. It's been an interesting read nonetheless, but the rabble-rousing by some negative posters does not reflect what I hear from customers at the dealerships I visit, or from my research in reviews and other forums, and discussions with Lexus personnel. Naturally, there are diverse opinions, but IMO the overall direction Lexus is on has a positive track.
08-17-09, 02:24 PM
#92
That was a great post, and much of it I really agree with (perhaps surprisingly). This topic was only ever started about my views and opinions so it's natural for many people to disagree. 
My main concern about the perception of somewhat "dead" styling is the consequences it could have on Lexus in the future. A few years ago, with no visually exciting or rousing vehicles Toyota found themselves with a rapidly aging customer base. Their fix was Scion, which has been an interesting exercise, but thankfully since the early 2000s Toyota has engineered more passion and emotion into their cars (Camry SE is worlds better, Venza is great, FJ Cruiser, Corolla XRS, Yaris, Tacoma X Runner, etc). The benefits of this have been plain to see, and I am happy that things have turned around for the company.
Lexus, outside of the IS, really doesn't have much that appeals to younger luxury buyers in terms of models, configurations, or design. Even then, there is no IS coupe which is a big, big deal for these consumers. I went into this a few pages back but in my travels to the dealership, talking to friends and fellow owners, and some of the things that I have seen, Lexus will really need to ramp up the excitement factor to combat an aging customer base. To younger customers, styling is a big deal and it's one area where Lexus is not quite as cutting edge as the competition.
If I talk to my grandparents about Lexus, they talk about how well made they are, reliability, dependability, etc.
If I ask my parents they say much of the same.
If I talk to my friends and coworkers, I hear the same, but also that they are rather boring and somewhat stodgy. They also rarely ever make their shopping lists, even though those are made up of many competing vehicles.
I think the greatest point in your post was that they need to diversify their lineup, which I do greatly agree with. Spicing up the styling a bit and offering an IS and GS coupe would do wonders for those "haters" while not bothering the LS, ES, and RX fans. As it stands now, the Lexus lineup is 90% swayed towards the older crowd...and it shows. There is nothing wrong with that but hopefully they also see this and have plans to address the issues.
My main concern about the perception of somewhat "dead" styling is the consequences it could have on Lexus in the future. A few years ago, with no visually exciting or rousing vehicles Toyota found themselves with a rapidly aging customer base. Their fix was Scion, which has been an interesting exercise, but thankfully since the early 2000s Toyota has engineered more passion and emotion into their cars (Camry SE is worlds better, Venza is great, FJ Cruiser, Corolla XRS, Yaris, Tacoma X Runner, etc). The benefits of this have been plain to see, and I am happy that things have turned around for the company.
Lexus, outside of the IS, really doesn't have much that appeals to younger luxury buyers in terms of models, configurations, or design. Even then, there is no IS coupe which is a big, big deal for these consumers. I went into this a few pages back but in my travels to the dealership, talking to friends and fellow owners, and some of the things that I have seen, Lexus will really need to ramp up the excitement factor to combat an aging customer base. To younger customers, styling is a big deal and it's one area where Lexus is not quite as cutting edge as the competition.
If I talk to my grandparents about Lexus, they talk about how well made they are, reliability, dependability, etc.
If I ask my parents they say much of the same.
If I talk to my friends and coworkers, I hear the same, but also that they are rather boring and somewhat stodgy. They also rarely ever make their shopping lists, even though those are made up of many competing vehicles.
I think the greatest point in your post was that they need to diversify their lineup, which I do greatly agree with. Spicing up the styling a bit and offering an IS and GS coupe would do wonders for those "haters" while not bothering the LS, ES, and RX fans. As it stands now, the Lexus lineup is 90% swayed towards the older crowd...and it shows. There is nothing wrong with that but hopefully they also see this and have plans to address the issues.
08-17-09, 09:53 PM
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08-17-09, 10:46 PM
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08-18-09, 12:21 AM
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I agree completely with encore888. Perhaps you have grown out of the Lexus brand MPLexus301. I also completely disagree with most of what you have said MPLexus301.
I am in my 20s, and although I do not fit the traditional Lexus buyer demographic, I like the direction Lexus is going in and I definitely like the L-Finesse Lexus models, some more than their predecessors.
The F-sub brand is exactly designed to get the forum/enthusiast crowd more excited about Lexus, while attracting new and younger buyers to the brand. At the same time, the F cars are a separate sub-brand so it doesn't alienate or push away traditional Lexus customers.
The enthusiast and forum crowd will be more than satisfied with upcoming Lexus F models. The 4GS should also be a good improvement on the 3GS. The IS right now has a pretty low buyer age and continues to sell well.
I am glad to see the mods trying to make CL regain some of it's "community" feel. I also completely agree that certain posters lately on CL (I will not name names, some are new members, some are older members) have been almost entirely negative towards Lexus with nothing but criticism. If certain members have nothing good to say about Lexus and do not even like Lexus, then it begs the question of why they even post on CL in the first place. This is a LEXUS community and forum after all.
I am in my 20s, and although I do not fit the traditional Lexus buyer demographic, I like the direction Lexus is going in and I definitely like the L-Finesse Lexus models, some more than their predecessors.
The F-sub brand is exactly designed to get the forum/enthusiast crowd more excited about Lexus, while attracting new and younger buyers to the brand. At the same time, the F cars are a separate sub-brand so it doesn't alienate or push away traditional Lexus customers.
The enthusiast and forum crowd will be more than satisfied with upcoming Lexus F models. The 4GS should also be a good improvement on the 3GS. The IS right now has a pretty low buyer age and continues to sell well.
I am glad to see the mods trying to make CL regain some of it's "community" feel. I also completely agree that certain posters lately on CL (I will not name names, some are new members, some are older members) have been almost entirely negative towards Lexus with nothing but criticism. If certain members have nothing good to say about Lexus and do not even like Lexus, then it begs the question of why they even post on CL in the first place. This is a LEXUS community and forum after all.
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