New CAFE Standard: 35mpg by 2016
05-21-09, 01:35 PM
#46
The RX 450h gets 30 mpg. Some light trucks will get more, and some will get less, but it certainly seems possible to hit an average of 30 mpg six years from now.
05-21-09, 03:49 PM
#47
If no ones going to buy these 30+mpg things then what was the purpose of this legislation. Economics > govts high hopes
Last edited by 4TehNguyen; 05-21-09 at 03:57 PM.
05-21-09, 03:56 PM
#48
This is mostly BS. Gas prices aren't holding. They are rising. And when the economy goes back up, so will the price of oil. Small cars are relatively safe. I have yet to see this concrete evidence that this author speaks of stating that small cars aren't safe. That being said, large vehicles are not neccessarily safe vehicles.
http://www.iihs.org/news/rss/pr041409.html
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/...te/809662.html
the best way to increase mileage is to lower the size and weight of the car, too bad govt wants all these safety and emissions equipment to increase the weight. There has to be a trade off. A CRX made 57 mpg 20 years ago but its impossible now due to govt regulations
05-21-09, 04:10 PM
#49
Guest
Posts: n/a
^^Its not just the govt, its the consumer as well and business. GM led the way with the EV1 and gave up. Honda has some fuel efficent cars and some hybrids but lost the plot. Toyota was the only one with vision back in 1992 to come with the Prius and forecast that oil would rise, gas prices would rise and they needed to invest now. They figured the gravy train of low cheap gas in America and elsewhere would end sooner than later.
Everyone laughed at Toyota. Toyota didn't ignore what the market wanted, they still build huge Tundras and cars like the IS-F but they also invested in hybrid tech and more fuel efficient cars.
You see the LEADERS at Toyota made that painstaking decision. It wasn't the government or consumers. It was visionary. Toyota will now have more of an advantage as their forecasts were correct.
**** won't be sweet in America like it has been.
We have spoken about this before. Nissan for instance has their heads up their asses with fuel economy. They crapped on hybrids, then bought Toyota tech. They continue to market to the masses "power power power, HP HP HP HP" like you win a prize if you have more HP than your neighbor. The leadership was there for a business and made the choice to do the EASY WAY out.
I do agree, the government kind of has its head up its butts (again) with these standards and of course there will be loopholes. That said automakers are doing the same thing and consumers.
We need a COMPLETE RE-THINK of the way of the car in America and the way of life. Suburbs are the reason we need so many cars. we need more live/work/play areas that don't make people depend on a car. We need more mass transit that provides a TRUE ALERNATIVE and not just in name only. We need more hybrids, more diesels and other fuel efficient cars.
I said it in 2002 and I'll say it again. I have no earthly idea why John random needs a 240hp or near 300hp camry/Accord/Malibu/Altima etc? Why? where are you going so fast? the damn cars are not built for speed, they are family grocery getters.
I'm not smug but I wanted to get more MPG in my next luxury car. Why the hell not? Lexus gives me the opportunity to enjoy all the luxury of the GS with better fuel economy. I'm getting 27 MPG out this tank right now.
Why the hell are more car makers not making the DECISION to make more fuel efficent cars? Instead they rather continue keeping us on the path of relying on oil.
Besides again, this is nothing new to Europe and they do fine.
If you want your fun, then bust your *** working hard/smarter/whatever so you can have your economy car and your 500hp car for the weekends/track etc.
Everyone laughed at Toyota. Toyota didn't ignore what the market wanted, they still build huge Tundras and cars like the IS-F but they also invested in hybrid tech and more fuel efficient cars.
You see the LEADERS at Toyota made that painstaking decision. It wasn't the government or consumers. It was visionary. Toyota will now have more of an advantage as their forecasts were correct.
**** won't be sweet in America like it has been.
We have spoken about this before. Nissan for instance has their heads up their asses with fuel economy. They crapped on hybrids, then bought Toyota tech. They continue to market to the masses "power power power, HP HP HP HP" like you win a prize if you have more HP than your neighbor. The leadership was there for a business and made the choice to do the EASY WAY out.
I do agree, the government kind of has its head up its butts (again) with these standards and of course there will be loopholes. That said automakers are doing the same thing and consumers.
We need a COMPLETE RE-THINK of the way of the car in America and the way of life. Suburbs are the reason we need so many cars. we need more live/work/play areas that don't make people depend on a car. We need more mass transit that provides a TRUE ALERNATIVE and not just in name only. We need more hybrids, more diesels and other fuel efficient cars.
I said it in 2002 and I'll say it again. I have no earthly idea why John random needs a 240hp or near 300hp camry/Accord/Malibu/Altima etc? Why? where are you going so fast? the damn cars are not built for speed, they are family grocery getters.
I'm not smug but I wanted to get more MPG in my next luxury car. Why the hell not? Lexus gives me the opportunity to enjoy all the luxury of the GS with better fuel economy. I'm getting 27 MPG out this tank right now.
Why the hell are more car makers not making the DECISION to make more fuel efficent cars? Instead they rather continue keeping us on the path of relying on oil.
Besides again, this is nothing new to Europe and they do fine.
If you want your fun, then bust your *** working hard/smarter/whatever so you can have your economy car and your 500hp car for the weekends/track etc.
05-21-09, 04:16 PM
#50
Guest
Posts: n/a
The technology to make cars achieve this type of gas mileage is literally already here - it's just not available in the US. Part of the problem is that the American consumer is somewhat narrow-minded in that regard. The most obvious part of the market that is in conflict right now is the luxury sector. Why can't the American buyer accept a large luxury sedan (LS, A8 etc.) with a torquey, economical, refined and yet agile diesel or smaller gasoline engine? Why do we feel the need to have a powerful V8 under the hood whose power we will never fully exploit. Status and bragging rights can be achieved by simply owning such a car, but I seriously doubt that the average Joe on the street cares what is under the hood. Somebody cruising through the neighborhood in an S class or A8 is automatically considered wealthy and the envy of the crowd - regardless of what is under the hood. I've ridden in large diesel luxury sedans like the V6 diesel S class they have here and it is a fine car. Refined, smooth, quiet and of course all the other characteristics that make an S class an S class can be found in it. The only difference to the S550? It's slower. So what? Is speed and acceleration that important? How often do you brutally accelerate from a standstill to 60 mph each week? I cannot even recall the last time I actually did a kickdown in my current car! I drive my car in a relaxed and elegant manor - as do the vast majority of luxury car owners.
Also, part of the poor economy my fellow Americans achieve back home is part of the "I don't know how to drive properly" process. When I moved to Germany I could drive with my American driver's license for one year. After that expired, I had to take a German driver's test. Let me tell you that I was seriously impressed by the care that goes into teaching newbies how to drive properly. A veteran driver like me even learned a few things which I would never have been taught back in Maryland.
The most important thing taught to students here was how to drive economically. Shift up early and watch the road ahead and adjust the driving style appropriately. This means that instead of staying on the gas when the light ahead is red, remove your foot from the pedal and let the car roll gradually slowing down using brake power. I was never ever taught something as simple (yet so incredibly useful) when I was doing my license back in the late '70s. We were also taught how to make way on the highways (autobahns) for merging traffic. It always amazes me how disciplined people drive here. In the US when merging into a highway, I had to rely on horsepower and torque to make it but here this isn't the case. I've driven in Belgium, France, Italy, Switzerland, Austria and the Czech Republic and in all these nations people automatically give way to merging cars on the highways by pulling over into the fast lane, overtaking the slower merging cars and then pulling in a safe distance in front of them. I cannot recall seeing such discipline in the US at all.
Some of the comments here are complaining about "underpowered cars". Take it from me, there is nothing underpowered about some of the smaller engines found in your typical European premium car of today. My ex-Mercedes C200 CDI was the lowest engine available in the Euro C class and I was impressed with the general agility of this car (and the great gas mileage). My current Mercedes E230 (yes, E230!) is a refined 2.5 V6 that is both agile, refined and also delivers decent fuel economy. I always ask myself the question, "What more do I need?" These engines are completely adequate. They're refined, modern, efficient and also deliver agility meaning they are not slow. Before I married her, my then girlfriend had the Toyota Aygo 1.0 VVT. It wasn't slow. Granted, on the autobahn it struggled but as a city car I found it zippy and quick!
Personally, I would love to see these cars available in the US. How many people are "forced" to buy an E350 because there is no E230 or E280 available in the US for example? The same questions can be applied to almost any luxury car in the US at the moment. Give people a choice and they can select the car that suits their needs if they are realistic. And that's another problem - most people in the US aren't that realistic about their car choices based on the fact that gas is relatively cheap, as is insurance and we don't have the extreme car taxation problems that are "plaguing" Europe. In effect, however, the fact that Europe has expensive fuel, pricey insurance and a gazillion car taxes of all kinds has shaped their car buying mentality to the point where people are realistic about what they need. This was also something that was taught to me while attending my German driver's license course. If I am going to live in the city and use my car on a daily basis, then I probably would not need say a Lexus IS350 (if available in Europe) but rather an IS220d. Naturally this also depends on if you can afford it or not but the point of this is that people here do keep realism in mind when shopping for cars.
I apologize if my post is a bit jumbled up but I just returned from work and I am dead tired and can't think that clearly! Later, folks!
Also, part of the poor economy my fellow Americans achieve back home is part of the "I don't know how to drive properly" process. When I moved to Germany I could drive with my American driver's license for one year. After that expired, I had to take a German driver's test. Let me tell you that I was seriously impressed by the care that goes into teaching newbies how to drive properly. A veteran driver like me even learned a few things which I would never have been taught back in Maryland.
The most important thing taught to students here was how to drive economically. Shift up early and watch the road ahead and adjust the driving style appropriately. This means that instead of staying on the gas when the light ahead is red, remove your foot from the pedal and let the car roll gradually slowing down using brake power. I was never ever taught something as simple (yet so incredibly useful) when I was doing my license back in the late '70s. We were also taught how to make way on the highways (autobahns) for merging traffic. It always amazes me how disciplined people drive here. In the US when merging into a highway, I had to rely on horsepower and torque to make it but here this isn't the case. I've driven in Belgium, France, Italy, Switzerland, Austria and the Czech Republic and in all these nations people automatically give way to merging cars on the highways by pulling over into the fast lane, overtaking the slower merging cars and then pulling in a safe distance in front of them. I cannot recall seeing such discipline in the US at all.
Some of the comments here are complaining about "underpowered cars". Take it from me, there is nothing underpowered about some of the smaller engines found in your typical European premium car of today. My ex-Mercedes C200 CDI was the lowest engine available in the Euro C class and I was impressed with the general agility of this car (and the great gas mileage). My current Mercedes E230 (yes, E230!) is a refined 2.5 V6 that is both agile, refined and also delivers decent fuel economy. I always ask myself the question, "What more do I need?" These engines are completely adequate. They're refined, modern, efficient and also deliver agility meaning they are not slow. Before I married her, my then girlfriend had the Toyota Aygo 1.0 VVT. It wasn't slow. Granted, on the autobahn it struggled but as a city car I found it zippy and quick!
Personally, I would love to see these cars available in the US. How many people are "forced" to buy an E350 because there is no E230 or E280 available in the US for example? The same questions can be applied to almost any luxury car in the US at the moment. Give people a choice and they can select the car that suits their needs if they are realistic. And that's another problem - most people in the US aren't that realistic about their car choices based on the fact that gas is relatively cheap, as is insurance and we don't have the extreme car taxation problems that are "plaguing" Europe. In effect, however, the fact that Europe has expensive fuel, pricey insurance and a gazillion car taxes of all kinds has shaped their car buying mentality to the point where people are realistic about what they need. This was also something that was taught to me while attending my German driver's license course. If I am going to live in the city and use my car on a daily basis, then I probably would not need say a Lexus IS350 (if available in Europe) but rather an IS220d. Naturally this also depends on if you can afford it or not but the point of this is that people here do keep realism in mind when shopping for cars.
I apologize if my post is a bit jumbled up but I just returned from work and I am dead tired and can't think that clearly! Later, folks!
Again though, the luxury market is the vast minority of sales. I need to understand why the general "i hate cars" public needs these high hp VOLUME selling cars/SUVs. They are the majority of sales and sucking the gas up.
Why, so they can brag "hey I beat a Lexus/BMW etc in my Altima"
Your missing the plot, its still an Altima.
My G/F 4 cylinder 07 Altima maybe rough but it handles traffic fine and gets around fine and I've never felt it was underpowered with 180hp. I also get over 30MPG on the highway and 500 miles to the damn tank.
Why the hell does anyone need more power in an Altima/Camry/Accord etc is beyond me. So you can handle worse faster?
05-21-09, 04:37 PM
#51
the saving money on oil argument fails here, if by some miracle we did drop world demand for oil using that hurts north american oil first because that's more expensive that middle east. We are still going to send money to Saudi. Yea so much for not relying on foreign oil.
great now the govt is forcing us to drive something we don't want. Another freedom and liberty lost. How dare anyone argue why should you own this or why do you need that, because I can this is America. I don't have to justify anything to anybody. If I'm willing to drive a 12mpg car, who is anyone to stop me? I don't tell anyone else how to live their life
great now the govt is forcing us to drive something we don't want. Another freedom and liberty lost. How dare anyone argue why should you own this or why do you need that, because I can this is America. I don't have to justify anything to anybody. If I'm willing to drive a 12mpg car, who is anyone to stop me? I don't tell anyone else how to live their life
Last edited by 4TehNguyen; 05-21-09 at 04:41 PM.
05-21-09, 04:43 PM
#52
http://blogs.edmunds.com/straightlin...-combined.html
http://blogs.consumerreports.org/car...ybrid-suv.html
That's for a luxury SUV that is a lot heavier than it needs to be.
Yes, hybrids will be a much, much larger percentage of the auto market in 2016 than they are today. Probably a majority. Nobody ever claimed otherwise.
05-21-09, 04:46 PM
#53
So how will some of the luxury brands like Lexus, MB, BMW going to meet this 39mpg guideline? Does this mean you'll see prius like vehicles in there line up or will all the cars just be smaller in the future. If so i better buy my isf/c63/m3 in the next few years.
If most of the cars will be hyrbrids later thats going to take the fun out of modding cars unless you want the risk of being shocked to death.
If most of the cars will be hyrbrids later thats going to take the fun out of modding cars unless you want the risk of being shocked to death.
Last edited by GTSLEX; 05-21-09 at 04:50 PM.
05-21-09, 04:55 PM
#54
Lexus Fanatic
05-21-09, 05:04 PM
#55
Specifically, the average car will cost $1,300 more to conform to the new standards. That figure comes from the auto execs. Of course, you will save much more than $1,300 in gas costs over the life of the vehicle.
Yes, hybrids will be a much, much larger percentage of the auto market in 2016 than they are today. Probably a majority. Nobody ever claimed otherwise.
Yes, hybrids will be a much, much larger percentage of the auto market in 2016 than they are today. Probably a majority. Nobody ever claimed otherwise.
05-21-09, 05:06 PM
#56
Guest
Posts: n/a
So how will some of the luxury brands like Lexus, MB, BMW going to meet this 39mpg guideline? Does this mean you'll see prius like vehicles in there line up or will all the cars just be smaller in the future. If so i better buy my isf/c63/m3 in the next few years.
If most of the cars will be hyrbrids later thats going to take the fun out of modding cars unless you want the risk of being shocked to death.
If most of the cars will be hyrbrids later thats going to take the fun out of modding cars unless you want the risk of being shocked to death.
You can buy your IS-F etc in the future. Its not saying all cars have to get 40 mPG or so. The brand has to average that amount.
Yeah, I guess I am going to get shocked when I slap on those sway bars
The 2010 RX 450H is EPA-rated at 30 MPG.
http://blogs.edmunds.com/straightlin...-combined.html
http://blogs.consumerreports.org/car...ybrid-suv.html
That's for a luxury SUV that is a lot heavier than it needs to be.
Specifically, the average car will cost $1,300 more to conform to the new standards. That figure comes from the auto execs. Of course, you will save much more than $1,300 in gas costs over the life of the vehicle.
Yes, hybrids will be a much, much larger percentage of the auto market in 2016 than they are today. Probably a majority. Nobody ever claimed otherwise.
http://blogs.edmunds.com/straightlin...-combined.html
http://blogs.consumerreports.org/car...ybrid-suv.html
That's for a luxury SUV that is a lot heavier than it needs to be.
Specifically, the average car will cost $1,300 more to conform to the new standards. That figure comes from the auto execs. Of course, you will save much more than $1,300 in gas costs over the life of the vehicle.
Yes, hybrids will be a much, much larger percentage of the auto market in 2016 than they are today. Probably a majority. Nobody ever claimed otherwise.
the saving money on oil argument fails here, if by some miracle we did drop world demand for oil using that hurts north american oil first because that's more expensive that middle east. We are still going to send money to Saudi. Yea so much for not relying on foreign oil.
great now the govt is forcing us to drive something we don't want. Another freedom and liberty lost. How dare anyone argue why should you own this or why do you need that, because I can this is America. I don't have to justify anything to anybody. If I'm willing to drive a 12mpg car, who is anyone to stop me? I don't tell anyone else how to live their life
great now the govt is forcing us to drive something we don't want. Another freedom and liberty lost. How dare anyone argue why should you own this or why do you need that, because I can this is America. I don't have to justify anything to anybody. If I'm willing to drive a 12mpg car, who is anyone to stop me? I don't tell anyone else how to live their life
Again, this is not about the luxury market, the minority of sales. This is about the millions of Corollas, Civics, Camrys, Accords, Versas, Jettas, Sonatas, etc on the road. Why don't they get better MPG??
Why is it only the Jetta diesel, the Camry and Fusion Hybrids, Prius offer a nice interior with room for 5 that gets over 35 MPG? (I might have missed a couple others)??
People need to get their head out their asses in regards to fuel economy with regular pedestrian cars so we can also enjoy the 400, 500, 600 hp beasts we drool about.
05-21-09, 06:07 PM
#57
we have fuel efficient vehicles already you can go buy a CRX if you wanted, but people dont want one. You really think its right for the govt to force what cars we should be driving? Go buy your prius, just leave me alone, what's so hard about that? This is going to kill the diversity in the American auto market that made it so unique, and instead replacing them with undesireable, boring, and expensive vehicles. Absolutely no incentive to purchase a newer car. People can praise the mpg of cars so much, are you going to buy one? No? Then what was the purpose of this legislation besides hurting the automotive industry and hurting consumers?
Last edited by 4TehNguyen; 05-21-09 at 06:12 PM.
05-21-09, 06:49 PM
#58
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
these proposed cafe rules are just more social engineering to force most people to drive noisy uncomfortable and cramped vehicles.
and it will also further ensure that gm and chrysler have NO chance of survival, or if they are kept on life support for years with trillions that will just hurt other manufacturers.
i think ima gonna buy stock in ta ta motors... we'll all be driving those 2k crap boxes.
BESIDES the increased cost of vehicles, cap and tax, i mean trade, will ensure energy costs skyrocket.
get ready for the cost of car ownership to double in the next few years.
and don't forget bell weather states like CA just doubled car registration 'fees' (they use the term 'fees' to get around calling it a tax and avoiding requiring further popular votes)
the cafe rules are also disastrous for the boating industry, since people won't be able to afford a vehicle powerful enough to tow their boats.
and it will also further ensure that gm and chrysler have NO chance of survival, or if they are kept on life support for years with trillions that will just hurt other manufacturers.
i think ima gonna buy stock in ta ta motors... we'll all be driving those 2k crap boxes.
BESIDES the increased cost of vehicles, cap and tax, i mean trade, will ensure energy costs skyrocket.
get ready for the cost of car ownership to double in the next few years.
and don't forget bell weather states like CA just doubled car registration 'fees' (they use the term 'fees' to get around calling it a tax and avoiding requiring further popular votes
)the cafe rules are also disastrous for the boating industry, since people won't be able to afford a vehicle powerful enough to tow their boats.
Last edited by bitkahuna; 05-21-09 at 06:52 PM.
05-21-09, 07:34 PM
#59
The technology to make cars achieve this type of gas mileage is literally already here - it's just not available in the US. Part of the problem is that the American consumer is somewhat narrow-minded in that regard. The most obvious part of the market that is in conflict right now is the luxury sector. Why can't the American buyer accept a large luxury sedan (LS, A8 etc.) with a torquey, economical, refined and yet agile diesel or smaller gasoline engine? Why do we feel the need to have a powerful V8 under the hood whose power we will never fully exploit. Status and bragging rights can be achieved by simply owning such a car, but I seriously doubt that the average Joe on the street cares what is under the hood. Somebody cruising through the neighborhood in an S class or A8 is automatically considered wealthy and the envy of the crowd - regardless of what is under the hood.
Personally, I would love to see these cars available in the US. How many people are "forced" to buy an E350 because there is no E230 or E280 available in the US for example? The same questions can be applied to almost any luxury car in the US at the moment. Give people a choice and they can select the car that suits their needs if they are realistic. And that's another problem - most people in the US aren't that realistic about their car choices based on the fact that gas is relatively cheap, as is insurance and we don't have the extreme car taxation problems that are "plaguing" Europe. In effect, however, the fact that Europe has expensive fuel, pricey insurance and a gazillion car taxes of all kinds has shaped their car buying mentality to the point where people are realistic about what they need. This was also something that was taught to me while attending my German driver's license course. If I am going to live in the city and use my car on a daily basis, then I probably would not need say a Lexus IS350 (if available in Europe) but rather an IS220d. Naturally this also depends on if you can afford it or not but the point of this is that people here do keep realism in mind when shopping for cars.
05-21-09, 07:36 PM
#60
If you want to imagine what things will be like here in seven years, you don't have to fantasize about a post-apocalyptic landscape of Tata Nanos. Just look at what Europe is like today.
Only things will be a lot better, because hybrid technology will have reached economies of scale.