IS-SV

They are expensive pleasure vehicles for those that can afford to play, and Porsche cars are quite competitive in their class.

mmarshall

As I see it, it's hard to determine just what is in Porsche's "class" to start with. You can't compare them to front-engined, RWD supercars like Corvettes and Vipers, for obvious reasons. You can't compare them to small, mid/rear engine cars like the former Toyota MR2, Fiat/Bertone X1-9, and Pontiac Fiero for price reasons. You can't compare them, obviously, to Mustang/Challenger/Camaro pony/muscle cars, or to small front engine/RWD sports cars like the Mazda Miata, Honda S2000, or Mazda RX-8. You can't, IMO, even compare them to a number of other mid/rear-engined supercars like the Ford GT, Ferraris and Lambos, because of some differences in the way Ford and the Italians mount the engines and transmissions in back. Porsche sport cars, of course, (I'll leave the Cayenne as a separate issue), regardless of whether they are mid-engine designs like the Boxster/Cayman or rear-engine like the 911/GT2/GT3, also have a unique 4/6 engine design that is shared by no other automaker in the world except Subaru (and decades-old VWs).

So, in a nutshell, what DO you consider in Porsche's "class"

FKL

Anything priced the same obviously

IS-SV

No need to make it more complicated than it needs to be. You could say they have created their own class of "semi-exotics", generally sporting cars providing a "superior driving experience" but just shy of being raw sports cars on purpose.


Porsche outsells and generates more profit than all the exotics mentioned. There is very little in common with a Subie or old aircooled VW anymore other than the flat 6 config, look deeper that's about it.

mmarshall

OK, maybe so. In CAR CHAT, I tend to be detailed and long-winded...it's just my nature.


Absolutely. That's because Porsche, perhaps more so than any other mass-market auto manufacturer, can sell their vehicles at the wholesale level (to dealers) for a lot more than it actually costs the factory to produce them. More profit is generated at the dealerships (even without ADVs) due to a fairly large markup between wholesale and retail. And when's the last time you've seen any Porsche factory incentives or dealer ads for discounting? That's right....almost never.


Of course not. I was only comparing the Porsche engine layout to Subies and old VWs for the flat-boxer cylinder layout.....nothing else. And Subaru is the only manufacturer to use the flat-boxer layout up front.

There's something to be said for the Porsche/Subaru engine layout, though. It sits low, is compact, doesn't take up a lot of space, lowers the center of gravity for handling, creates an output shaft location ideal for a simplified powertrain and AWD system without a bunch of bevel-gears, and gets oil pressure up quicker on cold starts than vertical or V-designs. The downside is that, advertising to the contrary, it tends to not be as smooth or quiet as some other designs. And, in rear-engine, tail-heavy Porsches, it was noted, in the past, for sharp oversteer and spin-outs on sharp curves if you let up on the gas.....that problem was not fixed until Porsches got updated suspensions and tires in the 1990s.

mmarshall

Sorry, mods. We all, me included, got a little off-topic...Porsche reliability.

UDel

Very true, the Porsche 911 and its variants are in its own class and there is little if any real competition when you consider price, type of car, engine type/layout. Porsche has that market all to itself. You simply can't find a 4 seat sports car with a flat six engine in the back or really anything close. Ferrari's/Lambos are very different, use different engines/layouts and are much more expensive. Corvettes are very different and use a totally different engine and engine layout and in most cases are much less expensive. The Nissan GTR is probably the closest package/price wise right now, it is priced around a base 911 and is a 4 seat sports car/GT but has a different type of engine/engine layout and the GTR performance wise is in the much more expensive 911 turbo/GT2 category. The NSX was more expensive then a base 911, mid engined, a 2 seater, more hardcore, and different from the 911 but those 2 cars were sometimes compared to each other because of price and both using 6 cylinders mounted behind the driver but the NSX was compared more to Ferrari's, which the Ferrari 348 was its main target when it was built.

No other sports car uses a flat six or has the engine mounted in the rear, only Porsche and it is simply amazing how much hp they can get out of a NA flat 6. 400+ hp from a NA 6 cylinder in the GT3 is more hp then most v8s produce.

IS-SV

On the subject of Porsche reliability, one of my co-workers had a 996 (earlier water-cooled Carrera) and the engine blew up at just over 100K miles. He wasn't happy that he had to pay for the replacement rebuilt engine. Later he bought a 2006 Carrera, so he still loves these cars for his daily commute, mostly about 35 miles each one on the freeway.

More accurate data will probably surface soon enough on frequency of engine failures, specifically related to IMS failures.

spwolf

I guess Toyota is officially the most reliable brand then, as they didnt have this strong showing in a long long time now... and this is with new models too, which "supposedly" were less reliable, but apperantly not.

ydooby

The Porsche sports cars score well only because they usually experience much lower mileage than mainstream cars. I'm more surprised that the Golf Plus beats the Corolla Verso, at least in their first 3 years.

TÜV-Report 2011, 3 year old cars

Rank Type Complaints
1 TOYOTA PRIUS 1.9%
2 TOYOTA AURIS 2.6%
2 MAZDA 2 2.6%
4 PORSCHE BOXSTER/CAYMAN 2.8%
4 VW GOLF PLUS 2.8%
6 FORD FUSION 3.0%
7 TOYOTA COROLLA VERSO 3.1%
8 MAZDA 3 3.2%
9 OPEL AGILA 3.3%
9 SUZUKI SX4 3.3%
…
118 KIA SORENTO 9.2%
119 PEUGEOT 407 9.4%
119 ALFA ROMEO 159 9.4%
121 CITROEN C4 9.5%
122 HYUNDAI ATOS 10.0%
123 HYUNDAI SANTA FE 10.1%
124 CITROEN C5 11.5%
125 FIAT PANDA 11.6%
126 RENAULT ESPACE 12.2%
127 DACIA LOGAN 12.5%

TÜV-Report 2011, 10-11 year old cars

Rank Type Complaints
1 PORSCHE 911 9.5%
2 TOYOTA RAV4 10.0%
3 TOYOTA YARIS 16.8%
4 TOYOTA AVENSIS 17.6%
5 MAZDA MX-5 17.9%
6 MERCEDES SLK 18.1%
6 TOYOTA COROLLA 18.1%
8 SUZUKI VITARA 18.4%
9 MERCEDES S-KLASSE 20.7%
10 HONDA ACCORD 21.0%
…
63 OPEL ZAFIRA 31.6%
64 MERCEDES E-KLASSE 31.6%
65 VW PASSAT 32.2%
66 FIAT PUNTO 32.3%
67 CITROEN BERLINGO 32.4%
68 ALFA ROMEO 156 34.4%
69 FIAT BRAVO/BRAVA 36.0%
70 VW SHARAN 36.5%
71 SEAT ALHAMBRA 36.7%
72 FORD GALAXY 37.9%
73 FORD KA 38.9%

DustinV

The title is misleading.

The TÜV has absolutely nothing to do with the reliability of a vehicle. It examines vehicles and makes note of DEFECTS that could potentially lead to the vehicle experiencing a mishap due to the failure of certain components. This also includes components that generally experience wear and tear.

An example of what the TÜV examines would be the physical condition of a cars brake pads or rubber seal linings on crucial components or the kilowatt strength of the headlights etc.

An older reliable car that has been neglected and whose components are in poor shape will get a failing score at the TÜV whereas a newer unreliable car whose components are in tip-top shape will be awarded excellent and passing markings.

The TÜV in Germany simply ensures that people have an incentive to take care of their cars and have them roadworthy at all times.

Hoovey689

iTrader: (16)

good point

superchan7

The 911 doesn't add much by being in this survey. It doesn't even sell enough to be statistically meaningful and its relatively meticulous owners will 1) Drive relatively few miles on them, and 2) Make sure that the cars are in good shape, at least when inspection time comes. After all, they can afford it.

DustinV

Actually high mileage 911s aren't uncommon here.

The 911 enjoys the reputation of a practical daily driver and weekend sports car which means people use them to go to work and back home or tour across Europe visiting country after country.

If you look into the second hand section of some car magazines, it isn't uncommon to find high mileage Porsches in them with mileages of up to 150,000 km or more. They're less desirable than a low mileage model, though (naturally).

UZJ100GXR

A friend of mine is thinking of selling his Land Cruiser 2008 for something more sporty but he is worried that he will not have the same trouble free experience he has had with the Toyota.

He doesn't go off road much so he doesn't need the off road capability of the LC, its just too heavy and
bulky for him, its expected though since the Land Cruisers are built like Tanks.

Anyway, how has the reliability of the newer Cayenne S been like?
He is looking for one without all the technological/electronic gizmos, as basic as they come as he figures it will be less costly in the long term, what do you think?