My monthly rant on why C&D is toilet paper for goats.....I just got this text..
05-28-09, 09:18 AM
#46
Lexus Fanatic
Come on mmarshall, if you line up a 535, an A6, E350 and a GS350 in front of a race track, of course the tester is going to vote for the BMW. How about having them drive those cars in NY city rush hours and having to deal with the repairs for 4 years and then see which car they would pick. How about having the tester sit in those interior and controls for a 24 months test period and see which car comes out on top. How about the tester driving thru a test course full of pot holes and see which suspension they prefer. These are all real life driving situations, driving on a race track is not my daily commute.
We saw that, for example, in some comparisons of the Infiniti G37 coupe and Hyundai Genesis 3.8 Track coupe. Some testers gave the Infiniti more points in the actual tests, but, when the difference in price was taken into account (some 13-14k), said that they would buy the Hyundai if it was money out of their own pockets. (BTW, I compared the two cars myself, and gave the nod to the Infiniti in interior quality, but to the Hyundai in everything else).
(And also, BTW, I agree with you that reliability is an inportant issue. Auto magazines don't usually have to deal with that, except in the long Four-Seasons, 50,000-mile endurance tests)
And, as far as NYC rush hour goes, forget cars, period, unless the weather is lousy. It's often faster walking.
(if you aren't on the subway)
Last edited by mmarshall; 05-28-09 at 09:23 AM.
05-28-09, 10:44 AM
#47
It's not quite that simple. In some comparisons (like R&T), the testers are asked to make a choice of what they would choose, price-dependent, and independent of price. If it is an issue of their own money being involved, the testers don't always choose the winner in the actual actual performance department.
We saw that, for example, in some comparisons of the Infiniti G37 coupe and Hyundai Genesis 3.8 Track coupe. Some testers gave the Infiniti more points in the actual tests, but, when the difference in price was taken into account (some 13-14k), said that they would buy the Hyundai if it was money out of their own pockets. (BTW, I compared the two cars myself, and gave the nod to the Infiniti in interior quality, but to the Hyundai in everything else).
(And also, BTW, I agree with you that reliability is an inportant issue. Auto magazines don't usually have to deal with that, except in the long Four-Seasons, 50,000-mile endurance tests)
And, as far as NYC rush hour goes, forget cars, period, unless the weather is lousy. It's often faster walking. (if you aren't on the subway)
We saw that, for example, in some comparisons of the Infiniti G37 coupe and Hyundai Genesis 3.8 Track coupe. Some testers gave the Infiniti more points in the actual tests, but, when the difference in price was taken into account (some 13-14k), said that they would buy the Hyundai if it was money out of their own pockets. (BTW, I compared the two cars myself, and gave the nod to the Infiniti in interior quality, but to the Hyundai in everything else).
(And also, BTW, I agree with you that reliability is an inportant issue. Auto magazines don't usually have to deal with that, except in the long Four-Seasons, 50,000-mile endurance tests)
And, as far as NYC rush hour goes, forget cars, period, unless the weather is lousy. It's often faster walking.
(if you aren't on the subway)
05-28-09, 12:40 PM
#49
Lexus Test Driver
When I was making the reference to NYC rush hour, I was actually talking about the interior of the vehicle. I can sit in traffic in a Lexus, MB or Audi with their top notch interior and feel very comfortable and relax while in traffic, or I can sit in the BMW funeral home interior and get all work up over the NYC drivers.
05-28-09, 12:54 PM
#50
Lexus Test Driver
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Quality wise, BMW interiors are top notch. The design may not be for everyone, but I personally like the austere nature. Subdued, elegant,in a way makers like Acura and Infiniti have yet to pull off.
05-29-09, 07:42 AM
#52
Lexus Test Driver
The design please very few buyer, most buyers over look the interior due to the performance. I suppose if you like the furnishing in a funeral home, you will find the BMW interior subdued and elegant.
When you compare BMW's interior to Acura and Infinity, you are actually saying BMW's interior is in that class, which is one or two class below Lexus, MB and Audi.
Last edited by The G Man; 05-29-09 at 08:02 AM.
05-31-09, 12:03 PM
#55
Lexus Fanatic
Do you read the monthly columns in the front of the magazine that Patrick Bedard, John Phillips, and Csaba Csede write? They don't strike me as goat crap. Brock Yates did not impress me, but he is gone....and Csaba Csede will also soon be.
05-31-09, 08:56 PM
#56
Lexus Test Driver
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The material is average, not top notch. Since when does plastic seats in a $55000 car become top notch material?
The design please very few buyer, most buyers over look the interior due to the performance. I suppose if you like the furnishing in a funeral home, you will find the BMW interior subdued and elegant.
When you compare BMW's interior to Acura and Infinity, you are actually saying BMW's interior is in that class, which is one or two class below Lexus, MB and Audi.
The design please very few buyer, most buyers over look the interior due to the performance. I suppose if you like the furnishing in a funeral home, you will find the BMW interior subdued and elegant.
When you compare BMW's interior to Acura and Infinity, you are actually saying BMW's interior is in that class, which is one or two class below Lexus, MB and Audi.
I'm not gauging everything based on Leatherette seating surfaces (which, lets be honest, is not particular to only BMW). I am huge stickler for interior quality and general build quality and craftsmanship, as you may know, and honestly I believe BMWs get a very raw deal, for what I am not sure, especially in the 3-Series. The attention to detail is there, from the theater lighting around the cabin to the LEDs that shine out from underneath the door handles. There is a nice coating on the door pockets, the roof liner material is well done, the dash pieces are soft touch, there's a tasteful use of wood (if so equipped) and chrome to give the interior like I said, a nice, austure and elegant appearance (in my opinion). The way the armrests on the doors glide down is a tastefull design exercise, as is the way the dash "pops" forward towards you subtly...I do find places that could be improved...the hard plastic beneath the iDrive screen could be done better, and the screwhead could be lost (ok in a Honda, not here). I agree Audi has better done interiors, G Man, as I'm sure you'd agree, but I think the "quality" of a BMW is still there, from the heft of the doors, to the well done detailing that is expected from a vehicle of this calliber.
Take for example the door here...if you've felt this, it's very high quality with a tastefull, elegantly sculpted design. In many ways, the same "flame" bangle conventions used on the exterior translate beautifully to the interior of the vehicle. That grab handle is the perfect example of this translation.
Last edited by FKL; 05-31-09 at 09:01 PM.
05-31-09, 10:41 PM
#57
Are you sure you're not talking about the current Honda/Toyota lineup? That would do there, but I don't see how this is applicable to a BMW. The interior of the 3-Series in particular, often ragged upon, is done with high quality finishes and material choices. The design, as I mentioned, is not for everyone.
I'm not gauging everything based on Leatherette seating surfaces (which, lets be honest, is not particular to only BMW). I am huge stickler for interior quality and general build quality and craftsmanship, as you may know, and honestly I believe BMWs get a very raw deal, for what I am not sure, especially in the 3-Series. The attention to detail is there, from the theater lighting around the cabin to the LEDs that shine out from underneath the door handles. There is a nice coating on the door pockets, the roof liner material is well done, the dash pieces are soft touch, there's a tasteful use of wood (if so equipped) and chrome to give the interior like I said, a nice, austure and elegant appearance (in my opinion). The way the armrests on the doors glide down is a tastefull design exercise, as is the way the dash "pops" forward towards you subtly...I do find places that could be improved...the hard plastic beneath the iDrive screen could be done better, and the screwhead could be lost (ok in a Honda, not here). I agree Audi has better done interiors, G Man, as I'm sure you'd agree, but I think the "quality" of a BMW is still there, from the heft of the doors, to the well done detailing that is expected from a vehicle of this calliber.
Take for example the door here...if you've felt this, it's very high quality with a tastefull, elegantly sculpted design. In many ways, the same "flame" bangle conventions used on the exterior translate beautifully to the interior of the vehicle. That grab handle is the perfect example of this translation.
I'm not gauging everything based on Leatherette seating surfaces (which, lets be honest, is not particular to only BMW). I am huge stickler for interior quality and general build quality and craftsmanship, as you may know, and honestly I believe BMWs get a very raw deal, for what I am not sure, especially in the 3-Series. The attention to detail is there, from the theater lighting around the cabin to the LEDs that shine out from underneath the door handles. There is a nice coating on the door pockets, the roof liner material is well done, the dash pieces are soft touch, there's a tasteful use of wood (if so equipped) and chrome to give the interior like I said, a nice, austure and elegant appearance (in my opinion). The way the armrests on the doors glide down is a tastefull design exercise, as is the way the dash "pops" forward towards you subtly...I do find places that could be improved...the hard plastic beneath the iDrive screen could be done better, and the screwhead could be lost (ok in a Honda, not here). I agree Audi has better done interiors, G Man, as I'm sure you'd agree, but I think the "quality" of a BMW is still there, from the heft of the doors, to the well done detailing that is expected from a vehicle of this calliber.
Take for example the door here...if you've felt this, it's very high quality with a tastefull, elegantly sculpted design. In many ways, the same "flame" bangle conventions used on the exterior translate beautifully to the interior of the vehicle. That grab handle is the perfect example of this translation.
First of all take a look at you own picture that you've posted. Look at the grain of that leather (or fake leather). It looks commercial quality, and does not compare to Lexus smooth leather. It also gets dirty fast because of the grain, and its impossible to clean.
Then look how the speaker and door handle trim are just separate pieces slapped on in the middle of leather trim. Looks awfuly cheap, and creates gaps that attract dirt. Lexus always puts controls onto solid panel, and leather trim is separate.
Then if you look all over interior you will see that dash/center console pieces have huge gaps, the center console and center stack are ridiculously cheap looking and feeling, the manual steering wheel column is just terrible, where the seats rails bolt to the floor there are no covers.
And since we are on the topic of doors, quite frankly I'm yet to see a better executed door panel than the current Acura RL.
06-01-09, 06:38 AM
#58
Lexus Test Driver
I agree with Och, there is nothing high quality in that picture, especially that Kmart speaker grill. BMW does offer wood and leather but all as an option, where as other manufacturers have them on their standard interior, except for MB which have standard wood but optional leather.
06-01-09, 06:52 AM
#59
I agree with Och, there is nothing high quality in that picture, especially that Kmart speaker grill. BMW does offer wood and leather but all as an option, where as other manufacturers have them on their standard interior, except for MB which have standard wood but optional leather.
We can post a million pics but there are some things that pics can't capture. Sure the Acura doors may "look" good but when you experience it in real life, then it makes you wonder if what you see is truly what you get. Och, when we have a local meet, I will take you for a spin & then we can compare & contrast.
06-01-09, 07:04 AM
#60
The RL interior is actually really nice depending on whether or not you like a ridiculous amount of buttons on the dash. The materials feel nice and solid which is more than I can say about the rest of the Acura line up. Unfortunately, the RL suffered from super bland design before the refresh to super ugly parrot beak.