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Old 05-30-09, 08:01 AM
  #76  
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Originally Posted by Btmnk21
it's amazing you attack and seemingly hate the guys who work 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, but you don't seem to mind the hundreds who make 6-8 figures. Do they not eat up profits?
i agree totally that many jobs have pay and bonuses that a) are totally out of line with what they do and b) should be tied to corporate performance so when the times get tough that pay should come down. same problem on wall st. of course.

1) Starting pay was $44/hr. That is inline with other unions.
i don't know what other unions that is inline with, but if that $44 is actual direct pay, not including the lavish benefits, that is ABSURD. but regardless, the real problem is the retirees collecting pensions and using healthcare paid for by the car companies. the management of those companies agreed to commitments they couldn't keep, however the commitment was made with the usual "our way of the highway" tactics of the UAW who would strike after strike, costing the companies BILLIONS.

How about the executives who rake in millions? Fly private jets, work whatever hours they want, company cars, free meals? Where is the outrage to cut their salaries and perks?
see above, but those executives are usually highly educated and perform much more complex work and decision-making that doing the same boring job over and over on the assembly line. but yes, the perks for the execs are often WAY out of line.

I'd rather have 1000 people making money than 1 executive making millions. Take your guess on who will spread and spend more?
that's a false dichotomy. you need both to run a large manufacturing company.

Your lack of empathy is sickening.
you being ok that someone with little education doing routine assembly work can start at $44/hr is nuts.
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Old 05-30-09, 09:54 AM
  #77  
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Originally Posted by Btmnk21
OK timeout. Show me the gold plated anything. I'd bet you'd find that in the CEO's office if anywhere. it's amazing you attack and seemingly hate the guys who work 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, but you don't seem to mind the hundreds who make 6-8 figures. Do they not eat up profits?

1) Starting pay was $44/hr. That is inline with other unions. Just because the union is large in numbers (large being a relative term since they have taken concessions over the past 50 years and the numbers have dwindled) does not mean they aren't the "little guy". They are on the bottom rung of the corporate ladder. How about the executives who rake in millions? Fly private jets, work whatever hours they want, company cars, free meals? Where is the outrage to cut their salaries and perks?

2) Those rights you casually disregard, clauses restricting lay-offs and pay cuts? Those were hard won items brought about with the whole creation of the union idea. Protection of the worker. In this case the American worker. I'd rather have 1000 people making money than 1 executive making millions. Take your guess on who will spread and spend more?

3) Pay rate: won over time. It's not a gift and yes some people do make a lot, but that comes with experience. Even starting at $44, unions workers are not rich by any definition. have you seen the news footage? These people are struggling worse than many in this country right now. Their towns are desolate. Do me a favor and calculate a CEO's hourly rate. Throw up yet? Oh wait, college educated, white male, deserves it right? Those who only graduated high school they can eat dirt and make minimum wage. (snark).

4) 10+ yrs in an industry does not mean I run the industry (and I'm not involved in the OEMs- the industry is huge- but you're probably blind to that fact too). Obviously the Big 3 and the oil industry opposed increased regulation. It sort of helped having 32 out of the last 44 years under GOP (big business, big oil, no regulation party) control.

5) R&D budgets were in no way compromised. Why? Two reasons: you notice the huge influx of high MPG American cars in the past 6 months? The R&D work was done years before. Also if you remember, they were making 30+ mpg cars in the 80's and early 90's. They know how, but saw bigger profits in larger cars. So unless you're going to argue that since the UAW took money (i.e got paid for work) and this some how made the engineers forget how to make a fuel efficient car, I don't quite understand your point on this.

Your lack of empathy is sickening.
Your philosophy is that of a homeless person regarding point 3, Starting wage a construction company is $15 dollars. It's more labour intense, you have to know what to do when you get your self in a sticky situation (what kind of problems can a assembly line worker encounter a tool that is left in the wrong spot). $44 x 8hr day x 5days a week x 56 weeks a year = 98,560 before deductions. Are you telling me that you can not support your self or a family making close to 6 figures a year fastening bolts. It might just be me but thats just terrible money managment. Immigrant family's can support a family of 3 and send the kids to collage on a 60k income. We as americans are very wasteful and stupid about our purchases. Especialy theese guys that work for $44 a hour, they do not understand the value of a dollar.
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Old 05-30-09, 10:25 AM
  #78  
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Just get it done. Carve out the crap cars from their product lines (including lame divisions like Pontiac, Saturn, Hummer), so the next time I rent a car I don't have to reject all those mediocre, poor quality, low performance, cheezy cars.
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Old 05-30-09, 10:37 AM
  #79  
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Originally Posted by IS-SV
Just get it done. Carve out the crap cars from their product lines (including lame divisions like Pontiac, Saturn, Hummer), so the next time I rent a car I don't have to reject all those mediocre, poor quality, low performance, cheezy cars.
lmfao........

Union/executives the ENTIRE COMPANY is a problem. I am with neither side.
 
Old 05-30-09, 10:58 AM
  #80  
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Originally Posted by 1SICKLEX
lmfao........

Union/executives the ENTIRE COMPANY is a problem. .
I agree, GM is a money-bleeding mess.
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Old 05-30-09, 12:16 PM
  #81  
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Originally Posted by 1SICKLEX
lmfao........

Union/executives the ENTIRE COMPANY is a problem. I am with neither side.
Originally Posted by IS-SV
I agree, GM is a money-bleeding mess.
Dead on... so can ANYONE explain how adding $30 billion on top of bankruptcy will IMPROVE this?????

O bsessive
B ozo
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M ost
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Old 05-30-09, 06:14 PM
  #82  
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Originally Posted by IS-SV
I agree, GM is a money-bleeding mess.
GM is a burden to the U.S. taxpayers...

Yes, of course the UAW is a parasite to GM, Chryco and Ford. When GM and Chryco die the UAW will soon find out that when you kill your host the parasite dies...

Last edited by Trexus; 05-30-09 at 06:17 PM.
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Old 05-30-09, 06:34 PM
  #83  
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Fiat is taking over!
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Old 05-31-09, 12:58 PM
  #84  
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Originally Posted by bitkahuna
i agree totally that many jobs have pay and bonuses that a) are totally out of line with what they do and b) should be tied to corporate performance so when the times get tough that pay should come down. same problem on wall st. of course.

i don't know what other unions that is inline with, but if that $44 is actual direct pay, not including the lavish benefits, that is ABSURD.

you being ok that someone with little education doing routine assembly work can start at $44/hr is nuts.

Like I have posted several times, US UAW autoworkers do not make $44hr or more in take home base pay. I have worked at a GM plant when I was younger and know several people that work at a GM plant in Delaware. They make anywhere from $26-$31hr and that includes COL and shift differential. My friend averages around 58K-65K a year depending on overtime and how long the plant shuts down for maintenance, reduction in inventory, retooling which they don't receive full pay. That is not out of line with your average middle class salary and is not absurd. When you factor in the bonuses that US foreign car plant autoworkers get their pay is similar, UAW workers make much less then German and other foreign autoworkers yet I don't hear too much complaining about their salaries. Since the automotive business generates huge profits it is a business that can and should pay all their workers a decent wage, not just white collar workers who often sit in a comfortable air conditioned office all day and don't do a tenth of a amount of work as the lineworkers do in crappy conditions. All these $40-$70 an hour quotes are when you factor in retirees, pensions, healthcare benefits, other benefits, and that is what needs to be cut heavily and is what is hurting GM more, not the base take home pay which is more in line or slightly higher with what average middle class earners make.

Don't get me wrong, I generally don't like unions, especially the way they have been run since the 70's and don't like their strong arm tactics, corruptness, or the greed and anti big business attitude they have but I still don't think all the hate at UAW workers is justified when their membership in the union is forced and they have no choice and it is the union that demands the money and benefits, not the workers. I would not feel anything if the UAW was eliminated but that does not mean I think autoworkers should just be relegated to cheap labor making $15 an hour with little to no benefits as that is not going to solve anything with the big 3 except ruin peoples lives and ruin the economy around them. Not all autoworkers tow the big Union I am a working men and deserve it all attitude and my friends who work there are pretty conservative and have alot of problems with the union. Most are willing to take a cut in pay and benefits and have with current re negotiations if they think it is needed to keep the company afloat but they can't live off of a huge cut of their base pay as they are not making all that much to begin with unlike what many and the media tries to portray.

It was never UAW base pay that hurt the big 3 as other auto companies pay similar or much larger wages and they are doing fine besides the recession hurting things currently. It was white collar corporate decisions and white collar bad designers/engineers that gave us the crappy vehicles from the 70's and on that absolutely destroyed their reputations and people were no longer willing to buy them or spend much or big 3 vehicles and now mostly buy foreign. Same thing happened with the US electronics industry and their bluecollar workers have been pretty much treated and paid mostly as cheap labor. If people think just paying autoworkers $15 bucks an hour while the greedy worthless CEO's, Executives, Engineers, Designers, higher ups continue to be paid hundreds of thousands to millions per year plus bonuses and perks is going to solve the big 3's woes they are completely wrong and it is just going to hurt them more.

There needs to be changes and cuts all throughout the big three but the biggest change needs to be better designed more competitive vehicles that can rebuild their image to get people back to respecting and buying them, without that no amount of pay cuts in UAW pay is going to help the big 3.
Face it, I doubt anyone here thinks or complains they are overpaid or make too much money no matter what they do or has ever quit a job or went on to something else because they think they get paid too much so people can't really blame UAW workers for accepting a decent wage because that is exactly what anyone would do in the same position.
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Old 05-31-09, 01:03 PM
  #85  
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Two American car makers are now in BK (or will be tomorrow). One can try to sugar coat this all they want but the clear facts remain the same. Bankruptcy is bankruptcy is bankruptcy. There is no nice bankruptcy, it is all the same on paper. I have yet to view a credit report with the words, "BK-but a nice BK" on it.

And Fiat is going to save the step child of the industry? Come on..Daimler could not save them, what makes anyone believe Fiat of all companies that has failed in the US market years ago will turn Chrysler around? Fiat knows nothing of the US car marker and we all know Chrysler is not much better. Two failures does not exactly equate to a proven formula for success.
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Old 05-31-09, 05:55 PM
  #86  
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This is the only way to get rid of the union. The Government Motor will emerge from Ch 11 in a year or so,but without the union on their back. I would like to see them make a big come back with new CEO, fresh start and better products.
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Old 05-31-09, 09:16 PM
  #87  
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As Obama is a huge union supporter they are not going anywhere soon. I am now reading that part of the Chrysler BK deal is that they will not be paying back the taxpayers the 7 billion in bailout funds.

Here we are about to give GM, a proven failed company, an additional $30 billion for what? To continue to operate which is simply ignorant from any angle. The company failed, let them die along with Chrysler. They tried, they failed, stand up and take it like man.
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Old 06-01-09, 04:29 AM
  #88  
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I write this on the morning of the end of the once-mighty General Motors. By high noon, the President of the United States will have made it official: General Motors, as we know it, has been totaled.

As I sit here in GM's birthplace, Flint, Michigan, I am surrounded by friends and family who are filled with anxiety about what will happen to them and to the town. Forty percent of the homes and businesses in the city have been abandoned. Imagine what it would be like if you lived in a city where almost every other house is empty. What would be your state of mind?

It is with sad irony that the company which invented "planned obsolescence" -- the decision to build cars that would fall apart after a few years so that the customer would then have to buy a new one -- has now made itself obsolete. It refused to build automobiles that the public wanted, cars that got great gas mileage, were as safe as they could be, and were exceedingly comfortable to drive. Oh -- and that wouldn't start falling apart after two years. GM stubbornly fought environmental and safety regulations. Its executives arrogantly ignored the "inferior" Japanese and German cars, cars which would become the gold standard for automobile buyers. And it was hell-bent on punishing its unionized workforce, lopping off thousands of workers for no good reason other than to "improve" the short-term bottom line of the corporation. Beginning in the 1980s, when GM was posting record profits, it moved countless jobs to Mexico and elsewhere, thus destroying the lives of tens of thousands of hard-working Americans. The glaring stupidity of this policy was that, when they eliminated the income of so many middle class families, who did they think was going to be able to afford to buy their cars? History will record this blunder in the same way it now writes about the French building the Maginot Line or how the Romans cluelessly poisoned their own water system with lethal lead in its pipes.

So here we are at the deathbed of General Motors. The company's body not yet cold, and I find myself filled with -- dare I say it -- joy. It is not the joy of revenge against a corporation that ruined my hometown and brought misery, divorce, alcoholism, homelessness, physical and mental debilitation, and drug addiction to the people I grew up with. Nor do I, obviously, claim any joy in knowing that 21,000 more GM workers will be told that they, too, are without a job.

But you and I and the rest of America now own a car company! I know, I know -- who on earth wants to run a car company? Who among us wants $50 billion of our tax dollars thrown down the rat hole of still trying to save GM? Let's be clear about this: The only way to save GM is to kill GM. Saving our precious industrial infrastructure, though, is another matter and must be a top priority. If we allow the shutting down and tearing down of our auto plants, we will sorely wish we still had them when we realize that those factories could have built the alternative energy systems we now desperately need. And when we realize that the best way to transport ourselves is on light rail and bullet trains and cleaner buses, how will we do this if we've allowed our industrial capacity and its skilled workforce to disappear?

Thus, as GM is "reorganized" by the federal government and the bankruptcy court, here is the plan I am asking President Obama to implement for the good of the workers, the GM communities, and the nation as a whole. Twenty years ago when I made "Roger & Me," I tried to warn people about what was ahead for General Motors. Had the power structure and the punditocracy listened, maybe much of this could have been avoided. Based on my track record, I request an honest and sincere consideration of the following suggestions:

1. Just as President Roosevelt did after the attack on Pearl Harbor, the President must tell the nation that we are at war and we must immediately convert our auto factories to factories that build mass transit vehicles and alternative energy devices. Within months in Flint in 1942, GM halted all car production and immediately used the assembly lines to build planes, tanks and machine guns. The conversion took no time at all. Everyone pitched in. The fascists were defeated.

We are now in a different kind of war -- a war that we have conducted against the ecosystem and has been conducted by our very own corporate leaders. This current war has two fronts. One is headquartered in Detroit. The products built in the factories of GM, Ford and Chrysler are some of the greatest weapons of mass destruction responsible for global warming and the melting of our polar icecaps. The things we call "cars" may have been fun to drive, but they are like a million daggers into the heart of Mother Nature. To continue to build them would only lead to the ruin of our species and much of the planet.

The other front in this war is being waged by the oil companies against you and me. They are committed to fleecing us whenever they can, and they have been reckless stewards of the finite amount of oil that is located under the surface of the earth. They know they are sucking it bone dry. And like the lumber tycoons of the early 20th century who didn't give a damn about future generations as they tore down every forest they could get their hands on, these oil barons are not telling the public what they know to be true -- that there are only a few more decades of useable oil on this planet. And as the end days of oil approach us, get ready for some very desperate people willing to kill and be killed just to get their hands on a gallon can of gasoline.

President Obama, now that he has taken control of GM, needs to convert the factories to new and needed uses immediately.

2. Don't put another $30 billion into the coffers of GM to build cars. Instead, use that money to keep the current workforce -- and most of those who have been laid off -- employed so that they can build the new modes of 21st century transportation. Let them start the conversion work now.

3. Announce that we will have bullet trains criss-crossing this country in the next five years. Japan is celebrating the 45th anniversary of its first bullet train this year. Now they have dozens of them. Average speed: 165 mph. Average time a train is late: under 30 seconds. They have had these high speed trains for nearly five decades -- and we don't even have one! The fact that the technology already exists for us to go from New York to L.A. in 17 hours by train, and that we haven't used it, is criminal. Let's hire the unemployed to build the new high speed lines all over the country. Chicago to Detroit in less than two hours. Miami to DC in under 7 hours. Denver to Dallas in five and a half. This can be done and done now.

4. Initiate a program to put light rail mass transit lines in all our large and medium-sized cities. Build those trains in the GM factories. And hire local people everywhere to install and run this system.

5. For people in rural areas not served by the train lines, have the GM plants produce energy efficient clean buses.

6. For the time being, have some factories build hybrid or all-electric cars (and batteries). It will take a few years for people to get used to the new ways to transport ourselves, so if we're going to have automobiles, let's have kinder, gentler ones. We can be building these next month (do not believe anyone who tells you it will take years to retool the factories -- that simply isn't true).

7. Transform some of the empty GM factories to facilities that build windmills, solar panels and other means of alternate forms of energy. We need tens of millions of solar panels right now. And there is an eager and skilled workforce who can build them.

8. Provide tax incentives for those who travel by hybrid car or bus or train. Also, credits for those who convert their home to alternative energy.

9. To help pay for this, impose a two-dollar tax on every gallon of gasoline. This will get people to switch to more energy saving cars or to use the new rail lines and rail cars the former autoworkers have built for them.

Well, that's a start. Please, please, please don't save GM so that a smaller version of it will simply do nothing more than build Chevys or Cadillacs. This is not a long-term solution. Don't throw bad money into a company whose tailpipe is malfunctioning, causing a strange odor to fill the car.

100 years ago this year, the founders of General Motors convinced the world to give up their horses and saddles and buggy whips to try a new form of transportation. Now it is time for us to say goodbye to the internal combustion engine. It seemed to serve us well for so long. We enjoyed the car hops at the A&W. We made out in the front -- and the back -- seat. We watched movies on large outdoor screens, went to the races at NASCAR tracks across the country, and saw the Pacific Ocean for the first time through the window down Hwy. 1. And now it's over. It's a new day and a new century. The President -- and the UAW -- must seize this moment and create a big batch of lemonade from this very sour and sad lemon.

Yesterday, the last surviving person from the Titanic disaster passed away. She escaped certain death that night and went on to live another 97 years.

So can we survive our own Titanic in all the Flint Michigans of this country. 60% of GM is ours. I think we can do a better job.

Yours,
Michael Moore
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Old 06-01-09, 06:32 AM
  #89  
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Here is a question for you guys, how do I charge the Chevy Volt if I have to park in the street?
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Old 06-01-09, 06:40 AM
  #90  
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should've did this a year ago so they wouldn't have wasted $50B of our money ad selling its soul to the govt.

Michael Moore is a douchebag also
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