Koma

iTrader: (3)

Most times I agree with you Mike but that article is pretty lame.
A lady "forced" to sell her Corolla because she couldn't make a $250 car payment on a $60k salary?

My car payment is more than that and I OVERPAY the car payment so I can pay the car off in 3 years rather than 5.
I have school loans that are more than that car payment that I'm paying off at the same time as my car loan and I OVERPAY on that as well.
And I don't make any more than she does. I live within my limits. Given she may have 5 kids and a mortgage loan that she has to pay off but that's a whole other issue (I don't think people should plan to have kids until they're financially stable to care for them because I think it's unfair to the kids but that's just me).

People are still buying new cars but a lot less of them now because the economy has tanked and people can't take out ridiculous loans for cars.
If you can't AFFORD to buy a new car you shouldn't use home equity to purchase one. Most Americans are stupid with their money and like to dream big when their wallets are small.

Lexmex

I'm the second owner of my RX300 and I ran a Carfax and an Autocheck not too long ago. On Carfax, nothing out of the ordinary, but on Autocheck it revealed that the previous owner in NY had an accident on Long Island with the vehicle and then it wound up in an auction. I eventually bought it at a Saturn dealer in northern Virginia. My uncle and I have looked up and down over the vehicle over the years (and I know Lexus had serviced it a few times), but we couldn't find anything out of the ordinary. Still, that doesn't apply to everyone.

A few years back, I remember in Mexico a lot of friends were getting cars north of the border for cut rate deals at auctions. What they didn't know was that a lot of these vehicles were Hurricane Katrina vehicles, and they had no idea until problems arose after they had nationalized the vehicles.

UDel

You will also be the first to overpay a ridiculous amount for the new car, first to be nickle and dimed for every little option that should be standard, and the first to deal with your car generally being worth less then half of what you paid after just 3 or 4 years of ownership. After seeing how much my Lexus GS depreciated after just 4 years and that is supposidely a ca/brand that holds its value pretty well and how ridiculously overpriced new sports/lux cars are I don't think I will ever buy new again and that is not just because I can't afford to buy new, it just does not make much financial sense to buy new in many circumstances. You can get such a nicer car if you buy used for 18K-26K compared to the econoboxes and stripped boring family cars you can get at those prices. I know how to detail a car inside and out to make it look brand new so that is not an area I am concerned about. If someone takes the time to examine the car and gets it inspected then they can determine if the car is in good shape or something shady has happened to it.

There are still many good reasons and bonuses to buying a used car over a new one especially in this economy and part of the reason we are in this mess is too many people buying new expensive vehicles they realistically could not afford.

DASHOCKER

iTrader: (2)

I will make this short & sweet by saying this... What glitters isn't always gold. For that same 18k-26k you mention, you can by a brand new car. There are too many question marks with used cars & it may end up costing you more money in the long run than a new car. My GS was purchased second hand back in 2000 & boy has it cost me a pretty penny over the years. More so than the cars I purchased new like the BMW's & the Rav4. Don't get me wrong, there are some diamonds in the ruff but one might roll the dice & get snake eyes.

I agree people should not bite off more than what they can chew. Buy what you can afford. If you miss payments on that used car, the repo man can tow it away just like a new car.. Question: Can one get the Hyundai assurance plan on a used Hyundai?

UDel

Although my GS too has had quite a few issues (door lock actuators, squeeky struts, moisture in drivers headlights) it is not going to cost anywhere remotely close to pay to have those issues taken care of or me to fix them myself to what it cost the original owner to buy brand new. Brand new the car cost around 54K compared to around 23K what I paid. Even if I went with brand new parts at the most expensive place it would cost maybe 2K total to fix which is a good chunk but I am still saving around 29K from buying brand new and these issues except for maybe some of the moisture in the headlights happened just out of warranty so it is not like they would have been taken off for free by the dealer anyway if I bought it new. If I go through the hassle I could look around for the best prices and do the repairs myself for around $500 or less. In most cases no matter how long your warranty is or how good a deal you got on the new car it generally does not come close to how much you save by buying it used.

There are some exceptions to buying used that may not be a good idea like buying older unreliable extremely expensive to fix and maintain German, British, and Italian luxury/sports cars that you could end up spending more buying used out of warranty from having to do insanely expensive repairs and maintenance compared to buying new or slightly used with an extended warranty but I generally will only buy reliable Japanese luxury makes like Lexus/Acura/Infiniti if I buy a used lux car because they make good used car buys from a financial point of view. I will have to weigh my options if I want a M3,911,AMG, A8,SL, CLS, in the future if it is even worth it buying it used or is it going to be a big money pit and costing me almost what it would cost to buy brand new, I would definitely want some kind of extended warranty with those kind of vehicles.

I am not saying I will never buy new in the future as there may be some circumstances that it makes more sense. If cars did not depreciate so much after just 3 or 4 years of ownership then I would be all for buying new most of the time just to be on the safe side but when a car is worth less then half of what you paid for it after just 3 or 4 years of ownership then that is just too hard a pill to swallow for me no matter what my financial situation is and that money saved can be put to better uses. I try to keep my cars for a long time 8-10 years or more so it makes even more sense for me to just buy a used reliable car and hopefully with the money saved I can if the situation arises buy that brand new or slightly used car that comes out that I really want, so far there is really nothing currently out besides overpriced 80K+ cars that I would want enough to replace my 01 GS430.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

do you buy used pc's too? used cell phones? used household appliances? i don't. why? because newer ones are NICER. have new features that weren't available when those used ones were made. have warranties used ones won't.

yes, the new one costs more, that's because it's NEW. look at it another way...

i don't know how old your car is, maybe 7 years? but if you buy that 23k car and sell it 5 years later, you'll probably only get 10k, and you're then selling a 12 year old car and the duration cost you 13k, plus whatever maintenance you did, and chances are, that was a lot more than the new car. not to mention the hassle. i've got better things to do than fix cars or go back and forth to some place to get it fixed. so let's suppose you spent 15k for the 5 years, or 3k/yr.

the new car was 54k and sold at 23k, for a 29k cost, over, (guessing), 7 years, so that's just over 4k/yr.

so for 1k more a year i can drive a car 7 years newer, with 7 years newer safety equipment, a nav system that doesn't suck compared to current ones, and on and on.

no brainer to me.

enjoy your old car!!!!

ultimately it all comes down to what you want to spend out of pocket, but buying cars of a particular age isn't really 'smarter' than any other.

someone i know considers himself smart for buying 2 yr old porsche 911 turbo convertibles for $140k. more power to you bud, that's still $140k! and who knows if the prior owner drove the snot out of it. mmm... no thanks.

UDel

Every study I have read says and shows you save much more money in the long run by keeping your cars longer and buying used in most circumstances, there is no arguing that. If I kept buying then selling cars after a few years to get the latest gadgets and options and to still have a fairly new car and not take as big of hit on depreciation I would have spent a bunch more then by not having payments and just saving money until I find something I really like much more. If there was a car that came out that I absolutely loved then yes I may buy it new but there really is nothing out there that really stirs my soul and I like much better then my car aside from cars costing 80K or more which brand new will most likely be much less reliable. The Acura RL or an Infiniti M45 sport are tempting but I will stay with my GS for now. I have really gotten into detailing lately and aside from some paint chips and nicks on the front bumper/hood my car looks brand new and much newer then its age suggest.

I don't use navigation systems, I use maps and have done fine my whole life so I don't need to spend thousands of dollars just to upgrade a older nav system, anyways car based nav systems are one of the biggest rip offs and wastes of money currently on the market. If I do want NAV I will buy a portable unit for $250-$400 or a cell phone with it and transfer it to any car/place I want which will cost much less then the way overpriced 2K+ Nav systems in cars that get outdated, can't be upgraded, and have to stay in that car. I don't like how they get fingerprints all over them and can barely be viewed in sunlight anyway.

I just don't like the newer 3rd Gen GS. I considered getting a 3rd Gen after a year buying my 2nd Gen because the Lexus dealer was going to give me a great deal and give me about what I paid for my 2nd Gen as a trade in because they were in high demand. It would be nice to have a new warranty but their was really nothing about the 3rd Gen I liked over the 2nd aside from nicer gauges and in some areas a more modern nicer dash design. I did not like the poorer headroom or the rougher but unsporty and uninvolving way it rode and drove. I find the exterior styling plain, odd, and a bit ugly especially from the rear where I love the styling on my 2nd Gen and still think it is one of the best looking sedans on the road. The two 3rd Gen GS I was considering already had interior squeaks and rattles and the interior materials did not feel as solid and more cost cut and after reading about all the negative issues with them I decided to pass on the newer model. Why would I spend more money just for a newer model that I did not like and was underwhelmed by for just a few minor options or improvements over my car and a nav system I will barely ever use.

I generally don't buy modern electronics used unless it is just some really cheap extra small tv, dvd player I buy from a friend/relative that I don't care much about because in most cases they are throwaway items and not worth paying the money to get them fixed and it often comes close to what you paid in the first place if something goes wrong. Home electronics are much different then cars for buying used because in most cases the repairs on cars don't cost anywhere near what you pay and cars last much longer with proper maintenance. Just look at all the issues flatscreens are having and how many of them require the whole panel/screen to be replaced just to fix it which means it would be better just to buy a new one then pay to have it fixed if you buy a used one with no warranty, that is the reason alone I would not buy a used expensive flatscreen.

I would never pay 140K for a used car, that is insane. I would not pay anywhere near half of that for a used car. If I get just a regular Porsche 911 there is no way I am buying it new and paying that insanely overly high price tag they make a huge profit from and then get nickle and dimmed for every little thing that should be standard just for the badge. I will certainly get it used and let someone else pay the humongous price for the name and take the big depreciation hit and I can deal with one a little older when it will be priced within a reasonable range.

For some people buying new and leasing every few years makes much more sense, particularly if people get bored quickly with their vehicles and want something newer and different which I totally understand. For my needs my GS serves me well and I don't have any reason to replace it right now or within a few years as most of the cars out now just don't impress me that much and I feel are way overpriced. Maybe the new upcoming generation RL, GS, and M will change my mind and I will have to replace my GS

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

sure, but using my figures, i'd still rather spend a grand a year to drive a 7 year newer car. if everything were about money i guess we'd all drive 10+ year old stripper corollas. the problem for me is i'd be so bored i'd end up sticking a fork in my eye to stay awake.

again you need to do the math, the difference is not that gigantic unless you trade a new car in 2 years which would be pretty decadant. ALL cars drop in value. sure there's an initial 'hit' when a new car is driven off the lot, and sure, if someone keeps a new car 2 years and sell it they get beaten up pretty good, but i'm not talking about that. i typically keep a car 5-6 years, i don't have payments, and sell my cars privately and do pretty well. yes i end up spending more than you, but again, i don't like driving old cars, especially ones with high mileage, but that's me.

another reason i like new cars is quite simply that i don't trust what a prior owner of a used car has done (or not done) to it, unless i happened to know the owner and i don't expect anyone to full disclose every little glitch.

i agree oem systems are typically overpriced AND lag behind aftermarket systems but at least you don't have a power cord or have to take up dash or windshield space for a unit.

but anyway, yes, i just got a tomtom 140S for my miata, and it's awesome.

printed maps suck, more power to ya.

i agree with all your comments there.

UDel

Well, my GS430 is far from a stripper corolla and I too would be miserable driving one When I buy a car I get something I really like or always wanted and can stick with for awhile which is why I will generally buy used so I get something much nicer for the money. I also research whats on the horizon for cars so I don't make a mistake if I like a newer model much more, if most cars under 50K in the not to distant future are going to be small green dinky uninspiring 4 or 6 cylinder hybrids I may have to keep my un PC v8 big GS a little longer and appreciate it even more

That is always a concern with prior owners when buying used and a risk you have to take but you can be smart about it. I try not to buy from younger cocky males who probably heavily abuse it, people who don't know anything about the car or lie about it or its condition, or people who don't seem like they would do the proper maintenance and take care of the car which is rarer with higher end cars. The guy I bought my GS from was almost the perfect seller: married, passive, laid back, seemed smart and educated, family man, had a small child, did not lease the car, did not put alot of miles on the car, and just bought a new house and a new SUV for his family which is why he had to sell the GS which I saw both the new house getting moved into and the new SUV. It was not perfect but I know with some polishing and detailing I could get it looking almost perfect with minimal amount of money and I was not going to find a better deal unless I waited a good deal longer.

This is just one case, my cousin bought a new Yukon Denali for around 40K with all the discounts in 2006 and was looking to sell it in 2008 when gas prices were sky high, no dealership would buy it and the most he was offered was $9,500 from a private buyer. Funny thing is I was getting offers of 15-20K for my 2001 GS from 2005-2007 from random people or friends and 14K in 2008 and I paid almost half of what he paid for a older but nicer vehicle. Let's just say that will be my cousins last large gas guzzling "luxury" GM suv, especially one he spends so much on new.

Again having a new car and new warranty is very nice and a nice piece of mind and I still may buy new in the future if it makes more sense or there is just something new I am in love with and have to have but after seeing how much expensive cars depreciate after just a few years of ownership and not being all that impressed with most cars out now I have really changed my mind about buying used and keeping them for awhile over paying all that money for a new heavily depreciating car is a hard pill to swallow but I do understand people wanting newer vehicles every few years especially when you have a pretty boring uninspiring vehicle that you don't particularly care for.

mmarshall

Mike, I greatly respect your opinions, but I have to go with DASH and bit here. Not all new cars end up with steep depreciation curves, and in general, the risks of a used car, IMO, outweigh what you save over a new car. Yes, you have Certified Pre-Owned cars that (supposedly) offer less risk, but, First, they cost more than non-CPOs, so you don't save as much over a new car, and, Second, I've seen a number of CPO's I haven't been impressed with, even with the much-ballyhooed "150-point inspections". It seems to be more of a marketing tool than anything else.

Now....I hope I didn't take the thread too far off-topic.

IS-SV

I tend to split the difference between the 2 views. My experience is that I can successfully cherry-pick low mileage CPO cars. But not everybody has the skill set, time and access to resources to insure a good purchase of a CPO used car, so I understand why they have to buy new and pay accordingly.

But I've seen new East coast cars purchased new that look like crap after 2 years of driving through slush and salt, never garaged and parked in hostile urban parking lots. Talk about rapid depreciation, yowza.

As far as Carfax reports, the main value to me is the registration history w/city/state. Of course nobody reports accidents to Carfax, should be no surprise. Buyer beware regardless.

mmarshall

Like you, I'm one of the people who DO know how to inspect a used car, and that's WHY I have not been impressed with a lot of them, even some CPO's. The average car owner says in public that he takes care of his car, but, in many ways, really doesn't. The CPO checklist covers some 140-150 items to check and repair or replace if necessary. In my experience of loking at CPOs, some of those 150 things are done, and others aren't. The average dealership probably doesn't have the time to go over all 150 things on each CPO.....their service departments are already busy with service, repair, and warranty work.


Although conditions can get pretty bad in New England, in general, the most deteriorated cars (and roads) are concentrated in the Great Lakes Snow Belt that covers parts of WI, all of MI, parts of northern IL, IN, OH, PA, and northern and western NY state. Vehicles from this part of the country often have extensive corrosion from salt/dirt and and wheel/tire/suspension damage from crumbled pavement, frost heaves, and pothole-filled roads.


Normally, I'm not in favor of more government regulations and bureaucracy, but, perhaps it would be a good idea for a new DOT or NHTSA database that would effectively take over the functions of CarFax and similiar companies, and have a law requiring accidents and the covered repairs to be reported to it. That way, it would all be in one centralized database, and easily accesed by the public.

IS-SV

Yes and conversely some of the best premium used cars are culled out of California stocks. I know from experience that out of state buyers shop California inventory carefully for low mileage Porsche cars.

mmarshall

Depends where in CA you are talking about. Along the coast, like along any other coast, the salt ocean air tends to promote some corrosion, and, in parts of the inland SE part of the state, the dry desert air doesn't promote corrosion, but the fierce summer sun and 120-degree temperatures do a number on paint, trim, upholstery, electronics, and rubber parts.

IS-SV

Of course their are subclimates in California, since the size, population and economic power is the equivalent of an entire nation.

Note: that is where the Carfax can help, since it shows city and state of registered owners.

The large population areas have the most temperate climates (and high income demographics) and the best pickings for auto inventory, and the experts in the field know it and cherry pick from it.