When will next gen IS and GS be out?
06-11-09, 02:11 PM
#61
Guest
Posts: n/a
As I have mentioned in the past, I think the largest "problem" the for the 3GS has been the ES 350. To all of us, the GS would probably be a clear choice over the ES because it's RWD and somewhat more performance oriented but to the car buying public, the ES is slightly larger and more comfortable, offers nearly all of the same features, costs noticeably less, and isn't really a significantly different driving car unless you start to get aggressive.
As mentioned above, I have given my opinions on the ES vs. GS several times, and did so after I drove both for a few weeks in the summer of 2007. The GS 300/350's artificial steering and "numb" driving experience really don't feel drastically different from the ES 350 in every day driving. If you start to get aggressive then yes, the ES feels front heavy and has more body roll but it is not the "boat" that the old ES 330 was, while the 2GS was sharper steering and feeling than the 3GS.
Six years ago, the difference between an ES330 and GS 300/430 was night and day. Today, drive an ES 350 and GS 350 back-to-back and it's more like the difference between night and dusk, so to speak. They're a lot alike, believe it or not. Both cars have moved more towards the middle from their respective "extremes" and the end result has been "Why pay 10K more for a GS?".
As Lexus continues to populate it's sedan offerings with the new HS, it will have some difficult choices ahead. IMO, the 3GS is a fine example of how an apparent lack of clarity and purpose amongst it's own brothers can impact success, both as a vehicle and in terms of sales. Lexus says that 60% of entry level luxury buyers mention that they would have considered a hybrid if one had been available...so why does it have to be a "dedicated hybrid", as the HS is being marketed? Why no IS or ES hybrid? A hybrid IS would have probably served 95% of the purpose of the HS 250h and would have made a lot more sense, IMO, while also diversifying the IS lineup. Add to that a hybrid ES, and between the two of them there would have been no need for the HS 250h. As the market moves more towards alternative powertrains, where will the IS and ES be left, since there is a good chance that Lexus will choose not to endow them with hybrid options because of the HS?
Lexus has this idea that similarly sized and priced cars can coexist under one roof if they are marketed and geared towards different audiences, but I am not sure that I buy the long-term success of such a solution. I really don't think that even 50% of IS buyers care too much about how the car handles and accelerates...it's main two selling points over the HS 250h. Those people will now be choosing between another IS, a similarly sized and more efficient HS, and a larger and more relaxed ES. On the higher end, the GS as well. Head ache, anyone?
I think that Lexus stands a strong chance of confusing or frustrating customers if they continue this multi-pronged approach on the sub-50K market. I know that IS and GS are often cross shopped, as are GS and ES. Now HS will probably be cross shopped with both the IS and ES, so on the outer loop, possibly the GS. This might sound like a stretch but after having worked in a dealership I can assure you that it's not.
The 2IS has obviously been a success for Lexus in terms of sales, customer age and attraction, awards and accolades, and brand image. It's really a great car. I think that the 3IS will do fine to improve on the virtues of the current car with some tweaks here and there, as long as it stays strongly positioned toward the "sport" side of the segment and does not slide towards the middle like the GS. I don't forsee this happening, but the HS will indeed be cross shopped, probably very often, with the IS. It is expected to cost in the $35,000-$43,000 range...much like the IS250 and 350. Since the HS obviously offers greater efficiency and room with a similar price tag, depending on market conditions (fuel prices) the IS could easily be left scraping up the few enthusiasts that wander into the show room every now and then. Depending on how the HS is received, the IS could possibly be delegated to the back burner, much like how the ES makes the GS a hard sell.
This generation of ES is stiffer, sharper, and more grown up. It's far from a 5 series, but for the buyer looking for a midsize sedan that is comfortable, well appointed with competitive luxury features, has potent engine, and a premium badge there is little reason to look anywhere else. Cars like the 5 series and E class offer more tech, more performance, and more passion, but cost twice as much. Problem is...the GS is one of those cars but does not offer as much sport as the 5 or E, and does not offer any significant technology aside from the hybrid powertrain from the GS 450h.
As the ES 350 bulked up and brushed up, this generation of GS was debuted with lackluster powertrain options, completely unsporty driving dynamics, ultra-artificial steering, and mediocre handling. While I would usually say that there is nothing wrong with "unsporty", between the similarly sized and optioned, lower priced ES, and the higher line, higher profle LS, the GS has simply been forgotten- because it is not significantly different from the other two. The only way to go is sportier- harder, better steering, handling, and more power so that it doesn't feel anything remotely like an ES 350 or LS 460. There needs to be a compelling reason to buy a GS over an ES or LS because right now- there isn't.
Many of you have mentioned exterior and interior styling to be a weak point for the GS, and while I can understand those qualms, I think they are hardly the reason for it's demise. Parked next to an A6, STS, M, E, and 5 series, the GS holds it's own. It's now four-and-a-half years old so yes, this design is supposed to look somewhat dated. Even then, it is still sleek, sexy, and athletic in overall exterior appearance. The front lower fascia could have been more interesting, and the rear could use a little pizzaz as well, and the 17" wheels on the 06-07 were perhaps the worst wheel option possible, but this is not a bad looking car. With the right wheels and the right color, I actually think it is downright sexy and I always have.
The interior, much like the exterior, is 8/10ths of the way there. Like Mike, I think that the detail and design in the doors is truly beautiful. It's very unique and tastefully done with wood and leather in the right places. The center stack however, is quite plain though user friendly and simple. The eight circular buttons on either side of the nav screen just don't look as tastefully integrated and well executed as they could. The LS and IS have a better design here, IMO. Other than that, there is little to complain about in my eyes. Unlike other Lexus models, it maintained most of the wood from the previous generation, has attractive and comfortable seats, and a seating position that is more reminiscent of a cockpit than any other Lexus. I have harped on and on about interior color choices, and this is certainly a sore spot for the 3GS. When you pay $50-65K for a car, you want more interior choices than a Toyota Corolla. They really dropped the ball, but the grey and black interiors are nice...cashmere is less attractive IMO.
We often talk about the difference between enthusiasts and average car buyers, and as I have now made obvious, the 3GS has not resonated with either. In terms of value, it is spanked by the ES and in terms of Lexus-like prestige and features, the LS 460 obliterates the GS. It's sales are being cannibalized from both top and bottom by cars that wear the same badge. For enthusiasts, it is not even as brash as the 2GS, let alone the 5 series and others. It's easy to say, "To the average consumer, horsepower and handling don't matter," but this generation GS has proven that the opposite is true. When dropping $50+K on a midsize, RWD luxury sport sedan, it does seem to matter. Someone is bound to raise the BMW 528i comparison, but I am sure that the 535i and 550i both handily outsell the GS 350 and GS 460, and neither have the in-house competition from an ES-type vehicle.
I really hope that the 3GS has been a learning experience for Lexus. The disappointment for many of us on this forum is because the 2GS was a ground breaking car in nearly every regard. Lexus did not follow up on that formula the third time around, and instead gave us a car that is less sporty and less compelling, while it's LS and ES brothers made their own compelling cases for purchase. With the 4GS, Lexus needs to set out to create a sporty, luxurious, high tech midsize sedan with a "no-holds" attitude. It's clear that Lexus was afraid to step on the LS' heels in terms of power and technology, meanwhile the German competition carries twice the content of the GS. Between it's own brothers (LS and ES) and the competition (5, E, A6, etc) the GS has simply been forgotten- and rightfully so. It's just not the car it once was. I am crossing my fingers that they get it right next time...
As mentioned above, I have given my opinions on the ES vs. GS several times, and did so after I drove both for a few weeks in the summer of 2007. The GS 300/350's artificial steering and "numb" driving experience really don't feel drastically different from the ES 350 in every day driving. If you start to get aggressive then yes, the ES feels front heavy and has more body roll but it is not the "boat" that the old ES 330 was, while the 2GS was sharper steering and feeling than the 3GS.
Six years ago, the difference between an ES330 and GS 300/430 was night and day. Today, drive an ES 350 and GS 350 back-to-back and it's more like the difference between night and dusk, so to speak. They're a lot alike, believe it or not. Both cars have moved more towards the middle from their respective "extremes" and the end result has been "Why pay 10K more for a GS?".
As Lexus continues to populate it's sedan offerings with the new HS, it will have some difficult choices ahead. IMO, the 3GS is a fine example of how an apparent lack of clarity and purpose amongst it's own brothers can impact success, both as a vehicle and in terms of sales. Lexus says that 60% of entry level luxury buyers mention that they would have considered a hybrid if one had been available...so why does it have to be a "dedicated hybrid", as the HS is being marketed? Why no IS or ES hybrid? A hybrid IS would have probably served 95% of the purpose of the HS 250h and would have made a lot more sense, IMO, while also diversifying the IS lineup. Add to that a hybrid ES, and between the two of them there would have been no need for the HS 250h. As the market moves more towards alternative powertrains, where will the IS and ES be left, since there is a good chance that Lexus will choose not to endow them with hybrid options because of the HS?
Lexus has this idea that similarly sized and priced cars can coexist under one roof if they are marketed and geared towards different audiences, but I am not sure that I buy the long-term success of such a solution. I really don't think that even 50% of IS buyers care too much about how the car handles and accelerates...it's main two selling points over the HS 250h. Those people will now be choosing between another IS, a similarly sized and more efficient HS, and a larger and more relaxed ES. On the higher end, the GS as well. Head ache, anyone?
I think that Lexus stands a strong chance of confusing or frustrating customers if they continue this multi-pronged approach on the sub-50K market. I know that IS and GS are often cross shopped, as are GS and ES. Now HS will probably be cross shopped with both the IS and ES, so on the outer loop, possibly the GS. This might sound like a stretch but after having worked in a dealership I can assure you that it's not.
The 2IS has obviously been a success for Lexus in terms of sales, customer age and attraction, awards and accolades, and brand image. It's really a great car. I think that the 3IS will do fine to improve on the virtues of the current car with some tweaks here and there, as long as it stays strongly positioned toward the "sport" side of the segment and does not slide towards the middle like the GS. I don't forsee this happening, but the HS will indeed be cross shopped, probably very often, with the IS. It is expected to cost in the $35,000-$43,000 range...much like the IS250 and 350. Since the HS obviously offers greater efficiency and room with a similar price tag, depending on market conditions (fuel prices) the IS could easily be left scraping up the few enthusiasts that wander into the show room every now and then. Depending on how the HS is received, the IS could possibly be delegated to the back burner, much like how the ES makes the GS a hard sell.
This generation of ES is stiffer, sharper, and more grown up. It's far from a 5 series, but for the buyer looking for a midsize sedan that is comfortable, well appointed with competitive luxury features, has potent engine, and a premium badge there is little reason to look anywhere else. Cars like the 5 series and E class offer more tech, more performance, and more passion, but cost twice as much. Problem is...the GS is one of those cars but does not offer as much sport as the 5 or E, and does not offer any significant technology aside from the hybrid powertrain from the GS 450h.
As the ES 350 bulked up and brushed up, this generation of GS was debuted with lackluster powertrain options, completely unsporty driving dynamics, ultra-artificial steering, and mediocre handling. While I would usually say that there is nothing wrong with "unsporty", between the similarly sized and optioned, lower priced ES, and the higher line, higher profle LS, the GS has simply been forgotten- because it is not significantly different from the other two. The only way to go is sportier- harder, better steering, handling, and more power so that it doesn't feel anything remotely like an ES 350 or LS 460. There needs to be a compelling reason to buy a GS over an ES or LS because right now- there isn't.
Many of you have mentioned exterior and interior styling to be a weak point for the GS, and while I can understand those qualms, I think they are hardly the reason for it's demise. Parked next to an A6, STS, M, E, and 5 series, the GS holds it's own. It's now four-and-a-half years old so yes, this design is supposed to look somewhat dated. Even then, it is still sleek, sexy, and athletic in overall exterior appearance. The front lower fascia could have been more interesting, and the rear could use a little pizzaz as well, and the 17" wheels on the 06-07 were perhaps the worst wheel option possible, but this is not a bad looking car. With the right wheels and the right color, I actually think it is downright sexy and I always have.
The interior, much like the exterior, is 8/10ths of the way there. Like Mike, I think that the detail and design in the doors is truly beautiful. It's very unique and tastefully done with wood and leather in the right places. The center stack however, is quite plain though user friendly and simple. The eight circular buttons on either side of the nav screen just don't look as tastefully integrated and well executed as they could. The LS and IS have a better design here, IMO. Other than that, there is little to complain about in my eyes. Unlike other Lexus models, it maintained most of the wood from the previous generation, has attractive and comfortable seats, and a seating position that is more reminiscent of a cockpit than any other Lexus. I have harped on and on about interior color choices, and this is certainly a sore spot for the 3GS. When you pay $50-65K for a car, you want more interior choices than a Toyota Corolla. They really dropped the ball, but the grey and black interiors are nice...cashmere is less attractive IMO.
We often talk about the difference between enthusiasts and average car buyers, and as I have now made obvious, the 3GS has not resonated with either. In terms of value, it is spanked by the ES and in terms of Lexus-like prestige and features, the LS 460 obliterates the GS. It's sales are being cannibalized from both top and bottom by cars that wear the same badge. For enthusiasts, it is not even as brash as the 2GS, let alone the 5 series and others. It's easy to say, "To the average consumer, horsepower and handling don't matter," but this generation GS has proven that the opposite is true. When dropping $50+K on a midsize, RWD luxury sport sedan, it does seem to matter. Someone is bound to raise the BMW 528i comparison, but I am sure that the 535i and 550i both handily outsell the GS 350 and GS 460, and neither have the in-house competition from an ES-type vehicle.
I really hope that the 3GS has been a learning experience for Lexus. The disappointment for many of us on this forum is because the 2GS was a ground breaking car in nearly every regard. Lexus did not follow up on that formula the third time around, and instead gave us a car that is less sporty and less compelling, while it's LS and ES brothers made their own compelling cases for purchase. With the 4GS, Lexus needs to set out to create a sporty, luxurious, high tech midsize sedan with a "no-holds" attitude. It's clear that Lexus was afraid to step on the LS' heels in terms of power and technology, meanwhile the German competition carries twice the content of the GS. Between it's own brothers (LS and ES) and the competition (5, E, A6, etc) the GS has simply been forgotten- and rightfully so. It's just not the car it once was. I am crossing my fingers that they get it right next time...
maybe to some, though to me the es350 is hardly a problem. it's simply a car i will never consider. when i look at the gs, it just simply lose out to 5 and a6 and e in a lot of areas. together with the very flaky launch (bad start) that's partially why it's at this stage. as you mentioned the 2gs launch was so strong and the wow factor was so deep, it carried all the way through 8 yrs in its cycle
overall i just see more negatives than positives on the 3gs compared to others, and that's probably why the weaker than expected sales. now granted i got the car mainly cause of reliability, but that doesn't totally mask out my issues with this car
overall i just see more negatives than positives on the 3gs compared to others, and that's probably why the weaker than expected sales. now granted i got the car mainly cause of reliability, but that doesn't totally mask out my issues with this car
As for sales, it still was 3rd best selling last year.
06-11-09, 02:37 PM
#62
Lexus Connoisseur
When I was shopping for my GS, the ES was not an option, but then again, i'm not the average buyer. 
06-11-09, 03:31 PM
#66
One of the best posts I've seen written
Henry I do think the ES has taken some GS sales. Why? For one a lot of people don't care about FWD (just look at people who buy Acuras) and the ES has turned into quite a good looking car like the GS. The ES is also clearly bigger on the outside and inside and Americans love big cars.
As for sales, it still was 3rd best selling last year.
Henry I do think the ES has taken some GS sales. Why? For one a lot of people don't care about FWD (just look at people who buy Acuras) and the ES has turned into quite a good looking car like the GS. The ES is also clearly bigger on the outside and inside and Americans love big cars.
As for sales, it still was 3rd best selling last year.
06-11-09, 04:23 PM
#67
Lexus Fanatic
whoa. how did this thread get so huge in a day?
the next GS will be out........ when it's done.
regarding the GS problem? Drop the price to 35000, and it will sell like hotcakes
the next GS will be out........ when it's done.
regarding the GS problem? Drop the price to 35000, and it will sell like hotcakes
06-11-09, 10:30 PM
#69
Lexus Test Driver
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06-12-09, 07:46 AM
#73
Lexus Test Driver
maybe to some, though to me the es350 is hardly a problem. it's simply a car i will never consider. when i look at the gs, it just simply lose out to 5 and a6 and e in a lot of areas. together with the very flaky launch (bad start) that's partially why it's at this stage. as you mentioned the 2gs launch was so strong and the wow factor was so deep, it carried all the way through 8 yrs in its cycle
overall i just see more negatives than positives on the 3gs compared to others, and that's probably why the weaker than expected sales. now granted i got the car mainly cause of reliability, but that doesn't totally mask out my issues with this car
overall i just see more negatives than positives on the 3gs compared to others, and that's probably why the weaker than expected sales. now granted i got the car mainly cause of reliability, but that doesn't totally mask out my issues with this car
The 2GS launch was what got me interested in the GS line, lots of commericals and lots of hyped. The 3GS simply did not not meet expectations.
06-12-09, 07:52 AM
#74
Guest
Posts: n/a
I agree rominl, its a shame too, the 3GS have so much going for it. Strong powertrain, good quality material and good reliability. Lexus should have invested more research into the GS's chassis rigidity, better handling, interior rattles and cabin head room. Hind sight is always 20 / 20, I hope they weill learn from their mistakes in the 4GS.
The 2GS launch was what got me interested in the GS line, lots of commericals and lots of hyped. The 3GS simply did not not meet expectations.
The 2GS launch was what got me interested in the GS line, lots of commericals and lots of hyped. The 3GS simply did not not meet expectations.
06-12-09, 08:00 AM
#75
The first series of commercials were only shown for a few weeks immediately at launch- it was relatively brief. The second one with the 350 ran for a few weeks and I remember seeing it a few times, but I never saw the GS 460 donut commercial on TV.
I don't recall having seen any print advertisements in major publications either.
I really think they did a poor job of marketing the car- the activity was very limited.