New BMW 316d
#46
As much as I try to take a balanced automotive perspective, I acknowledge that I have an American perspective too. And I have no interest either in paying $40K for a low performance/high mpg car, and no interest in a owning a low performance Prius for that matter either.
A couple of points make the American perspective a bit different (and I'm not saying one perspective is better than another):
1. Lower price of fuel (I'm not going to say if that's a good thing or not)
2. Higher income levels (certainly a factor for many of us in the US driving premium cars on this forum)
3. Safety (In the US we are surrounded by poor drivers driving crappy Explorers and other truck-type vehicles as personal transportation)
4. Wide-open spaces in the Western regions (it might be a surprise to some that speeds in the uncongested regions of the West are quite high over vast distances, it's pretty nice). So yes we do care about and like the power, especially if we can afford the premium car(s).
A couple of points make the American perspective a bit different (and I'm not saying one perspective is better than another):
1. Lower price of fuel (I'm not going to say if that's a good thing or not)
2. Higher income levels (certainly a factor for many of us in the US driving premium cars on this forum)
3. Safety (In the US we are surrounded by poor drivers driving crappy Explorers and other truck-type vehicles as personal transportation)
4. Wide-open spaces in the Western regions (it might be a surprise to some that speeds in the uncongested regions of the West are quite high over vast distances, it's pretty nice). So yes we do care about and like the power, especially if we can afford the premium car(s).
I understand you completely. I'm American after all and I know how things back home tend to be.
But you also have to see it from my new perspective. Since I moved to Germany I have tried to learn more about the European psyche. I have tried to become more European for the sake of widening my horizons and my knowledge and I feel that I have adapted well to life here, both emotionally and mentally (and this includes the car scene, too).
Before my time in Europe, I was pretty, well, "narrow minded" about a lot of things (no offense to anyone here, I will explain myself...). But the experience of living in another country, another continent with people from different cultures all around me has really molded me into a "new person". I hope I am not sounding like some religious wacko but this is really the only way I can explain it. Perhaps other members, who have lived abroad, can relate to this.
So, now I feel that most Americans are too dismissive of some products before giving them a chance to prove themselves. They hear the name "BMW 316d" and immediately dismiss the product based on the "316" nomenclature with the assumption that it is extremely slow ("underpowered"). It isn't. The 316d is adequate for the European (and other) markets. I completely realize that it is not designed for the US market, but a 320d or a 325d / 330d can be something quite lucrative, perhaps, in the US (in my opinion).
Also, I used to think a 0-60 time of 10 seconds was slow. Not anymore. I think the Mercedes C200 CDI I had took about 11 seconds to reach 62 mph but I didn't really notice it thanks to all the available torque. And you probably read my response to Threxx - the midrange performance of this 0-60 in 11 seconds car was very impressive. 0-60 times really don't mean much to me anymore, especially since in Europe it is midrange power that counts.
On a side note, I've also never had any real problems back home merging into highways with "slower cars". If we had a proper driving education system in America a lot of things could be changed for the better...
#47
Do not underestimate the midrange (passing power) performance of diesels, even small ones.
European cars destined for the US market are better equipped than their counterparts who remain in Europe. If this car were to be offered in the US it would come with the necessary features as standard. End of story.
BMW acceleration times are also underrated (European factory performance claims usually are). Maybe the 316d is actually a little faster than the Prius?
More usable? I was under the impression that the Prius suffered from some payload capacity limits thanks to the weight of the batteries? Once the statistics and specifications for the 316d appear I will make sure to check out how much extra payload it can take aboard.
I realize that the 3er and Prius have their advantages in terms if usability and such, but you're essentially making a claim against a car that hasn't been evaluated yet in this regard.
3er interior looks fine. Quality and workmanship are definitely there. The cabin just appears bland and spartan - not cheap, which is something completely different.
#48
Have you ever driven a modern diesel? I owned a car here in Germany that was pretty close to what this BMW 316d is like: a new W204 Mercedes C200 CDI. I believe I had 122 diesel horsepower under the hood and an insane amount of torque coupled to a five speed automatic transmission.
The performance? Obviously, the car wasn't blisteringly quick but I found the performance to be very satisfactory. Ok, so 0-60 took about the time same as this 316d - but the midrange performance was very impressive. It didn't matter if I was on the autobahn or a normal road, the C200 CDI had enough grunt to quickly accelerate at midrange speeds for a safe and quick overtaking. Take it from me: the 316d isn't as slow as you'd like to believe.
Anyway, when you buy a BMW you pay for the badge and the Euro-Dollar relationship. BMW, like all European manufacturers, practices prestige pricing. Why? Because people are willing to pay for this car. If the 316d should make it to North America (highly unlikely), it will come better equipped and will be cheaper than its European 316d counterpart - as is usually the case.
The performance? Obviously, the car wasn't blisteringly quick but I found the performance to be very satisfactory. Ok, so 0-60 took about the time same as this 316d - but the midrange performance was very impressive. It didn't matter if I was on the autobahn or a normal road, the C200 CDI had enough grunt to quickly accelerate at midrange speeds for a safe and quick overtaking. Take it from me: the 316d isn't as slow as you'd like to believe.
Anyway, when you buy a BMW you pay for the badge and the Euro-Dollar relationship. BMW, like all European manufacturers, practices prestige pricing. Why? Because people are willing to pay for this car. If the 316d should make it to North America (highly unlikely), it will come better equipped and will be cheaper than its European 316d counterpart - as is usually the case.
I understand and already stated that at partial throttle low RPM diesels offer a considerable advantage over gasoline engines... they offer quite a bit more power without significant revs required and offer a very satisfying feel.
Where they fall flat on their face in many cases is wide open throttle acceleration which often times feels as if the engine is making a lot of noise but the car is barely accelerating any faster than it was at lower RPM.
The fact stated is that the 316d does 0 to 62 in 10.9 seconds. You can use all the adjectives about how diesel power 'feels' on this road or that road or this speed and that speed that you like, but the fact is it still takes 10.9 seconds to 62 mph which is slow by most people's standards, including mine... especially when you're driving a car that costs 40+ grand and is marketed as having a sporty driver-oriented driving experience.
You're missing the fact that somebody interested in such a vehicle doesn't care about performance. Europeans view the acceleration time of this car as adequate. The point of this car is fuel economy.
If you want a bit more performance and fuel economy there is always a 318d or 320d (and other 3er models) to choose from. It's a shame that only the wonderful 335d is offered in the US because given my experience with the C200 CDI from Mercedes, I am almost positive the equivalent BMW 318d or 320d will be a bit more agile and sporty.
These are indeed great cars. It's a shame that people here judge them based on 0-60 times...
If you want a bit more performance and fuel economy there is always a 318d or 320d (and other 3er models) to choose from. It's a shame that only the wonderful 335d is offered in the US because given my experience with the C200 CDI from Mercedes, I am almost positive the equivalent BMW 318d or 320d will be a bit more agile and sporty.
These are indeed great cars. It's a shame that people here judge them based on 0-60 times...
I didn't miss any fact. I think you missed what I actually said and went off into a tangent. I said I don't think there's many people out there (at least here in the US) that are interested in a car that carves corners like the 3-series does that is as slow as the 316d. The primary selling point of the 3-series as a whole is the driving experience... the handling primarily. Name any other car sold in the US that handles as well as the 3-series and yet takes over 10 seconds to get up to 60. There are none that I can think of. That's because handling and at least moderate acceleration go hand in hand as features that people want to have together in their car. To have only good handling but poor acceleration and still pay the premium 3-series price is like Lexus making an LS460 that still rides smooth as butter but has extremely high road noise because they stripped out all of the sound deadening material from it to lighten it up for better fuel economy. What's the point of a smooth riding luxury car if you can't hear the person next to you talking?
And so again I ask what's the point of a nice-handling 40k dollar 3-series that's significantly slower than any minivan currently sold in the US?
Last edited by Threxx; 06-26-09 at 01:25 PM.
#49
I knew you would. And I enjoy and see value in your dual continent perspective that you bring. I too have driven in Europe (actually England) but it was almost 20 years ago and I thoroughly enjoyed it and noticed much difference in typical driver skill level.
#50
I'm sorry but 40 grand for 116hp and no passing power and no acceleration? No thanks. Its not like you are getting a loaded/super luxurious car anyway, probably basic equipment.
So it beats the Prius by a whopping 2 MPG? THe Prius is faster, more useable with more technology for less. You lose some interior build quality, handling.
The 335d is sesational but a 55k car, that is nuts!!
So it beats the Prius by a whopping 2 MPG? THe Prius is faster, more useable with more technology for less. You lose some interior build quality, handling.
The 335d is sesational but a 55k car, that is nuts!!
The funny thing is, I see so many people arguing about a miniscule difference in 0-60 times over a Prius, and want to make it seem as if the story is over. Wait, I also saw some posts in another thread arguing about how "passing power" and everyday "driving" made the LS hybrid "feel" faster than the regular petrol car? Why is that all conviniently forgotten when discussing the evil BMW Diesel (a double entendre)? The Prius is no performance car, and the Diesel, with it's much flatter torque curve, is going to always feel faster than a whining hybrid, even if their 0-60 times are nearly the same. What do you think happens when you slam down the throttle at cruising speed in a 316d v. a Prius? Come on.
The Prius is faster than a good number of diesels that are vying for mpg champions but of course you never hear that. It's also larger too but you never hear that either. You only hear "yeah this diesel from Europe gets 60mpg" until you realise it's a 1.4 litre that does 60 in 15 secs (I think I'm generous here). Hell the smart fortwo cdi handily beats the Prius with 80mpg (Imp.) real world driving compared to the Prius' 70mpg (imp.) rated value. Do you want a 45hp smart that does 60mph in 19 secs?
#51
The fact stated is that the 316d does 0 to 62 in 10.9 seconds. You can use all the adjectives about how diesel power 'feels' on this road or that road or this speed and that speed that you like, but the fact is it still takes 10.9 seconds to 62 mph which is slow by most people's standards, including mine... especially when you're driving a car that costs 40+ grand and is marketed as having a sporty driver-oriented driving experience.
I can only tell you that my ex-C200 CDI did 0-100 kph in about the same time frame and it felt fast to me. The torque made the car feel fast. And doesn't time fly when you're having fun?
I didn't miss any fact. I think you missed what I actually said and went off into a tangent. I said I don't think there's many people out there (at least here in the US) that are interested in a car that carves corners like the 3-series does that is as slow as the 316d. The primary selling point of the 3-series as a whole is the driving experience... the handling primarily. Name any other car sold in the US that handles as well as the 3-series and yet takes over 10 seconds to get up to 60. There are none that I can think of. That's because handling and at least moderate acceleration go hand in hand as features that people want to have together in their car. To have only good handling but poor acceleration and still pay the premium 3-series price is like Lexus making an LS460 that still rides smooth as butter but has extremely high road noise because they stripped out all of the sound deadening material from it to lighten it up for better fuel economy. What's the point of a smooth riding luxury car if you can't hear the person next to you talking?
But do you really think most BMW 3 series buyers care about top handling and performance? I am under the impression that is something the magazines want us to think. At most, roughly one third of BMW 3er buyers are interested in the car for its qualities. The rest are after the badge. This is an assumption on my part. I base this assumption on the fact that the majority of people out there aren't car enthusiasts. They want to drive a BMW or a Jaguar because of the name and status it gives them. True, they might also think that status is derived from what's under the hood.
Again, the 316d is not the car I would bring over to the US if I managed BMW. A 320d or 325d will be a far wiser choice as they're more spirited and also fuel efficient.
Like I said, the 316d is probably not the best choice for the American market but a 320d or 325d can probably win over a lot of customers with the proper marketing and such.
And please tell me why everyone is so obsessed with 0-60 times? I just don't get it. Like I said in my previous post, I had a Mercedes C200 CDI which probably drives similar to the BMW 316d and although it took about 11 seconds to hit 100 kph the midrange performance (the stuff that actually matters) was very good. No complaints from me. None at all.
#52
My slant is nobody is obsessed with 0-60 times. It's just a convenient benchmark measurement for gauging quickly how "quick" and powerful a car is.
You can talk horsepower but then you have to take into account weight, drivetrains, aerodynamics, etc. But when you talk 0-60 times it doesn't matter if you are talking about a Lotus-sized or a Escalade-sized when you compare the ability to accelerate.
For American premium car owners, something like a 0-60 time of under 6 or 7 seconds represents a car that is quick enough to justify the big price tag, assuming the other key attributes are there too.
You can talk horsepower but then you have to take into account weight, drivetrains, aerodynamics, etc. But when you talk 0-60 times it doesn't matter if you are talking about a Lotus-sized or a Escalade-sized when you compare the ability to accelerate.
For American premium car owners, something like a 0-60 time of under 6 or 7 seconds represents a car that is quick enough to justify the big price tag, assuming the other key attributes are there too.
#53
You lost me on that one. His highway mileage is about the same as his friend's RX hybrid because hybrid vehicles have almost zero benefit on the highway after their battery is discharged (which takes almost no time at all).
Their driving styles have very little to do with it.. and that aside how does a person drive like a wuss on the highway short of him driving right at or under the speed limit huddled over in the right hand lane, which I doubt is the case. It's an RX SUV for goodness sake... it's not meant to be hammered on... especially to high speeds.
Their driving styles have very little to do with it.. and that aside how does a person drive like a wuss on the highway short of him driving right at or under the speed limit huddled over in the right hand lane, which I doubt is the case. It's an RX SUV for goodness sake... it's not meant to be hammered on... especially to high speeds.
The benefits from the hybrid system is the CVT that can run the engine at lower rpm (which equals better mpg).
In addition, the engine is tuned to run on the Atkinson Cycle so there's another fuel saver there.
True, it may not be much but these two are the cause for the differences.
Ouch. It's a smaller price "premium" in Canada (esp. if you factor in that the 335d comes with an automatic and the 335i comes with a manual)
#55
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Basically. I am not going to even begin to think thats acceptable here. Maybe if you live in EUROPE or in a city where you may not use the highway or go over 50 MPH. That price/performance is awful, period. Imagine if you go to lunch and add another 300-400 lbs? 0-60 in never.
#56
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Just curious. Where did you test drive the 316d? How can you then claim it has "no passing power"?
Do not underestimate the midrange (passing power) performance of diesels, even small ones.
European cars destined for the US market are better equipped than their counterparts who remain in Europe. If this car were to be offered in the US it would come with the necessary features as standard. End of story.
The Prius is slightly faster. So what? Who actually uses a Prius to race against other cars?
BMW acceleration times are also underrated (European factory performance claims usually are). Maybe the 316d is actually a little faster than the Prius?
More usable? I was under the impression that the Prius suffered from some payload capacity limits thanks to the weight of the batteries? Once the statistics and specifications for the 316d appear I will make sure to check out how much extra payload it can take aboard.
I realize that the 3er and Prius have their advantages in terms if usability and such, but you're essentially making a claim against a car that hasn't been evaluated yet in this regard.
3er interior looks fine. Quality and workmanship are definitely there. The cabin just appears bland and spartan - not cheap, which is something completely different.
Do not underestimate the midrange (passing power) performance of diesels, even small ones.
European cars destined for the US market are better equipped than their counterparts who remain in Europe. If this car were to be offered in the US it would come with the necessary features as standard. End of story.
The Prius is slightly faster. So what? Who actually uses a Prius to race against other cars?
BMW acceleration times are also underrated (European factory performance claims usually are). Maybe the 316d is actually a little faster than the Prius?
More usable? I was under the impression that the Prius suffered from some payload capacity limits thanks to the weight of the batteries? Once the statistics and specifications for the 316d appear I will make sure to check out how much extra payload it can take aboard.
I realize that the 3er and Prius have their advantages in terms if usability and such, but you're essentially making a claim against a car that hasn't been evaluated yet in this regard.
3er interior looks fine. Quality and workmanship are definitely there. The cabin just appears bland and spartan - not cheap, which is something completely different.
The 316d should be a 25k car, not a 40k one. For 25k you can see the benefits of 50 MPG. For 40k, people expect some sort of performance with their MPG benefit.
Again nice car for EUROPE, in dense urban areas but or America it would rot o lots. No one wants a 40k 110hp car here.
#57
The Prius has no appeal to me (except as a decent taxi ride.), too low performance in all aspects as far as I'm concerned, exception being gas mileage of course. 316D at that price point, no thanks.
#58
1SICK, the 3-Series is a PREMIUM car, with PREMIUM build quality, PREMIUM road manners, and PREMIUM design. You know it's not even possible to be a "$25K" car, that's in Prius range, and that's where you start getting into cheap cost cutting. Come on
#59
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There is NOTHING premium about a bargain bones, 15" wheel having 110hp car I don't care what badge is on it.
If Lexus made a 110hp car for 40k let alone 25k, it would be bashed TO DEATH for being an overpriced POS and its not premium.
Premium? I think not.
I think this is a much better value 116d....
Its a shame lame Acura won't bring the diesel EUro Accord over as they canned plans. Though they have lost their minds with recent TSX pricing...I wonder would it have been under 30k
#60
3 series has never been marketed as Premium by BMW