DustinV

I understand you completely. I'm American after all and I know how things back home tend to be.

But you also have to see it from my new perspective. Since I moved to Germany I have tried to learn more about the European psyche. I have tried to become more European for the sake of widening my horizons and my knowledge and I feel that I have adapted well to life here, both emotionally and mentally (and this includes the car scene, too).

Before my time in Europe, I was pretty, well, "narrow minded" about a lot of things (no offense to anyone here, I will explain myself...). But the experience of living in another country, another continent with people from different cultures all around me has really molded me into a "new person". I hope I am not sounding like some religious wacko but this is really the only way I can explain it. Perhaps other members, who have lived abroad, can relate to this.

So, now I feel that most Americans are too dismissive of some products before giving them a chance to prove themselves. They hear the name "BMW 316d" and immediately dismiss the product based on the "316" nomenclature with the assumption that it is extremely slow ("underpowered"). It isn't. The 316d is adequate for the European (and other) markets. I completely realize that it is not designed for the US market, but a 320d or a 325d / 330d can be something quite lucrative, perhaps, in the US (in my opinion).

Also, I used to think a 0-60 time of 10 seconds was slow. Not anymore. I think the Mercedes C200 CDI I had took about 11 seconds to reach 62 mph but I didn't really notice it thanks to all the available torque. And you probably read my response to Threxx - the midrange performance of this 0-60 in 11 seconds car was very impressive. 0-60 times really don't mean much to me anymore, especially since in Europe it is midrange power that counts.

On a side note, I've also never had any real problems back home merging into highways with "slower cars". If we had a proper driving education system in America a lot of things could be changed for the better...

DustinV

Just curious. Where did you test drive the 316d? How can you then claim it has "no passing power"?

Do not underestimate the midrange (passing power) performance of diesels, even small ones.

European cars destined for the US market are better equipped than their counterparts who remain in Europe. If this car were to be offered in the US it would come with the necessary features as standard. End of story.



The Prius is slightly faster. So what? Who actually uses a Prius to race against other cars?

BMW acceleration times are also underrated (European factory performance claims usually are). Maybe the 316d is actually a little faster than the Prius?

More usable? I was under the impression that the Prius suffered from some payload capacity limits thanks to the weight of the batteries? Once the statistics and specifications for the 316d appear I will make sure to check out how much extra payload it can take aboard.

I realize that the 3er and Prius have their advantages in terms if usability and such, but you're essentially making a claim against a car that hasn't been evaluated yet in this regard.

3er interior looks fine. Quality and workmanship are definitely there. The cabin just appears bland and spartan - not cheap, which is something completely different.

Threxx

Yes I have driven modern diesels. What exactly did I say that was wrong from your perspective? I already acknowledged that while my Aura is faster in WOT to 60mph, it's weaker at partial throttle casual acceleration.

I understand and already stated that at partial throttle low RPM diesels offer a considerable advantage over gasoline engines... they offer quite a bit more power without significant revs required and offer a very satisfying feel.

Where they fall flat on their face in many cases is wide open throttle acceleration which often times feels as if the engine is making a lot of noise but the car is barely accelerating any faster than it was at lower RPM.

The fact stated is that the 316d does 0 to 62 in 10.9 seconds. You can use all the adjectives about how diesel power 'feels' on this road or that road or this speed and that speed that you like, but the fact is it still takes 10.9 seconds to 62 mph which is slow by most people's standards, including mine... especially when you're driving a car that costs 40+ grand and is marketed as having a sporty driver-oriented driving experience.



I didn't miss any fact. I think you missed what I actually said and went off into a tangent. I said I don't think there's many people out there (at least here in the US) that are interested in a car that carves corners like the 3-series does that is as slow as the 316d. The primary selling point of the 3-series as a whole is the driving experience... the handling primarily. Name any other car sold in the US that handles as well as the 3-series and yet takes over 10 seconds to get up to 60. There are none that I can think of. That's because handling and at least moderate acceleration go hand in hand as features that people want to have together in their car. To have only good handling but poor acceleration and still pay the premium 3-series price is like Lexus making an LS460 that still rides smooth as butter but has extremely high road noise because they stripped out all of the sound deadening material from it to lighten it up for better fuel economy. What's the point of a smooth riding luxury car if you can't hear the person next to you talking?

And so again I ask what's the point of a nice-handling 40k dollar 3-series that's significantly slower than any minivan currently sold in the US?

IS-SV

I knew you would. And I enjoy and see value in your dual continent perspective that you bring. I too have driven in Europe (actually England) but it was almost 20 years ago and I thoroughly enjoyed it and noticed much difference in typical driver skill level.

FKL

Prius is an economy car that in no way reaches the levels of refinement and luxury found in a 3-Series. Prius is a poor driving vehicle that in no way rivals the BMW 3-Series. You don't loose "some build quality and handling", you loose all of it.

The funny thing is, I see so many people arguing about a miniscule difference in 0-60 times over a Prius, and want to make it seem as if the story is over. Wait, I also saw some posts in another thread arguing about how "passing power" and everyday "driving" made the LS hybrid "feel" faster than the regular petrol car? Why is that all conviniently forgotten when discussing the evil BMW Diesel (a double entendre)? The Prius is no performance car, and the Diesel, with it's much flatter torque curve, is going to always feel faster than a whining hybrid, even if their 0-60 times are nearly the same. What do you think happens when you slam down the throttle at cruising speed in a 316d v. a Prius? Come on.

No, you are exagerrating yourself off a cliff. The Jetta TDI already gets comparable highway ratings to your Prius, and guess what bud? It is also quicker to 60mph, about 2 seconds quicker. You need to get these facts down straight before you try and disparage anything "non-hybrid". If you want to suddenly mark the Prius's mileage at "70mpg", there is no debating with you. You are moving an imaginary bar to suit this argument. It amazes me that so many have such preconcieved perceptions that they are so unwilling to break out from. Diesels are not exponentially "slower" than a Prius, and the Prius really isn't faster than "a good number" of diesels, false number one. Number two, recall that VW 1.4TSI Twin charger? Utilizes a supercharger and turbocharger, and petrol direct fuel injection, nets 45MPG, 0-60 in 8 seconds flat. Again, hybrids and your "Prius" aren't the all end and I hate it when I see so much hate for anything that seems to rival a hybrid MPG-wise be discredited on some phony terms that aren't based in reality.

DustinV

10.9 seconds is an acceptable acceleration time for most cars. I know first hand that we (North Americans) are spoiled by power and hence we have developed an appetite for quick cars (whose power the vast majority of us rarely exploit).

I can only tell you that my ex-C200 CDI did 0-100 kph in about the same time frame and it felt fast to me. The torque made the car feel fast. And doesn't time fly when you're having fun?





I see your point.

But do you really think most BMW 3 series buyers care about top handling and performance? I am under the impression that is something the magazines want us to think. At most, roughly one third of BMW 3er buyers are interested in the car for its qualities. The rest are after the badge. This is an assumption on my part. I base this assumption on the fact that the majority of people out there aren't car enthusiasts. They want to drive a BMW or a Jaguar because of the name and status it gives them. True, they might also think that status is derived from what's under the hood.

Again, the 316d is not the car I would bring over to the US if I managed BMW. A 320d or 325d will be a far wiser choice as they're more spirited and also fuel efficient.



The point is that there might be people who are interested in driving a premium sedan that achieves good fuel economy, handles well and is "reasonably spirited" in terms of driving dynamics. I realize that you, the enthusiast crowd, probably finds this hard to understand but I think that some buyers of premium cars in the US would embrace such a car that offers everything a 335d has except performance. I envision many older buyers, who aren't into performance, might find this car appealing.

Like I said, the 316d is probably not the best choice for the American market but a 320d or 325d can probably win over a lot of customers with the proper marketing and such.

And please tell me why everyone is so obsessed with 0-60 times? I just don't get it. Like I said in my previous post, I had a Mercedes C200 CDI which probably drives similar to the BMW 316d and although it took about 11 seconds to hit 100 kph the midrange performance (the stuff that actually matters) was very good. No complaints from me. None at all.

IS-SV

My slant is nobody is obsessed with 0-60 times. It's just a convenient benchmark measurement for gauging quickly how "quick" and powerful a car is.

You can talk horsepower but then you have to take into account weight, drivetrains, aerodynamics, etc. But when you talk 0-60 times it doesn't matter if you are talking about a Lotus-sized or a Escalade-sized when you compare the ability to accelerate.




For American premium car owners, something like a 0-60 time of under 6 or 7 seconds represents a car that is quick enough to justify the big price tag, assuming the other key attributes are there too.

Nextourer

The battery is never discharged on the highway.

The benefits from the hybrid system is the CVT that can run the engine at lower rpm (which equals better mpg).

In addition, the engine is tuned to run on the Atkinson Cycle so there's another fuel saver there.

True, it may not be much but these two are the cause for the differences.

Ouch. It's a smaller price "premium" in Canada (esp. if you factor in that the 335d comes with an automatic and the 335i comes with a manual)

pagemaster

10.9 seconds 0-60mph on an American road is pathetic....

Add in a $38k price tag and 10.9 0/60mph on an America....it's really pathetic

LexFather

Basically. I am not going to even begin to think thats acceptable here. Maybe if you live in EUROPE or in a city where you may not use the highway or go over 50 MPH. That price/performance is awful, period. Imagine if you go to lunch and add another 300-400 lbs? 0-60 in never.

LexFather

End of story? The story hasn't began as this car won't come here. The Prius is a hatch, the 3 is not, the Prius is simply more useable compared to pretty much all sedans. Its part of its appeal.

The 316d should be a 25k car, not a 40k one. For 25k you can see the benefits of 50 MPG. For 40k, people expect some sort of performance with their MPG benefit.

Again nice car for EUROPE, in dense urban areas but or America it would rot o lots. No one wants a 40k 110hp car here.

IS-SV

The Prius has no appeal to me (except as a decent taxi ride.), too low performance in all aspects as far as I'm concerned, exception being gas mileage of course. 316D at that price point, no thanks.

FKL

1SICK, the 3-Series is a PREMIUM car, with PREMIUM build quality, PREMIUM road manners, and PREMIUM design. You know it's not even possible to be a "$25K" car, that's in Prius range, and that's where you start getting into cheap cost cutting. Come on

LexFather

I can appreciate BMW offering another engine option, this one I believe from the 116d. I just don't see anyone buying this in America. We both know certains cars are great for certain markets and would fail elsewhere.

There is NOTHING premium about a bargain bones, 15" wheel having 110hp car I don't care what badge is on it.

If Lexus made a 110hp car for 40k let alone 25k, it would be bashed TO DEATH for being an overpriced POS and its not premium.

Premium? I think not.



I think this is a much better value 116d....



Its a shame lame Acura won't bring the diesel EUro Accord over as they canned plans. Though they have lost their minds with recent TSX pricing...I wonder would it have been under 30k

lexusscturbo

iTrader: (12)

3 series has never been marketed as Premium by BMW