Hyundai Equus flagship Thread (5.0 V8 400+hp and LWB coming)
04-04-10, 06:14 PM
#332
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developing crossturd, zdx, CRZ, insight aren't smart way to spend billions. insight is a joke(getting absolulely murdered by prius), crosstour/zdx is an automotive blasphemy, and CRZ is nothing but a wimpy coupe that no one will care.
for 6.5 billion they could've
1. make RL competitive. (no v8? that's fine. how about more HP, more torque, better exterior, and better performance?)
2. hire better designers
3. bring back fun coupes(teg, lude and etc).
4. develope RWD
again, compare honda and hyundai, and hyundai has much better technology than honda. hyundai deserves mad props. ask anybody who came from NY autoshow. it basically was hyundai/kia coming out party II.
04-04-10, 06:45 PM
#333
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Mercedes and BMW's R&D expenditures are oddly low in comparison.
These two companies are clear leaders in developing new tech - the S and 7 are often filled with industry "firsts". Even the new E and most likely the new 5 have innovations not even seen in their big brothers. The only other car to compete on the innovation front (and to a greater level imo) is of course the Lexus LS.
Maybe it's because they aren't "full line" automakers? Still, they have extensive lineups although filled with many variations.
These two companies are clear leaders in developing new tech - the S and 7 are often filled with industry "firsts". Even the new E and most likely the new 5 have innovations not even seen in their big brothers. The only other car to compete on the innovation front (and to a greater level imo) is of course the Lexus LS.
Maybe it's because they aren't "full line" automakers? Still, they have extensive lineups although filled with many variations.
04-04-10, 06:53 PM
#334
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developing crossturd, zdx, CRZ, insight aren't smart way to spend billions. insight is a joke(getting absolulely murdered by prius), crosstour/zdx is an automotive blasphemy, and CRZ is nothing but a wimpy coupe that no one will care.
for 6.5 billion they could've
1. make RL competitive. (no v8? that's fine. how about more HP, more torque, better exterior, and better performance?)
2. hire better designers
3. bring back fun coupes(teg, lude and etc).
4. develope RWD
again, compare honda and hyundai, and hyundai has much better technology than honda. hyundai deserves mad props. ask anybody who came from NY autoshow. it basically was hyundai/kia coming out party II.
Otherwise, "Honda" will no longer carry the same meaning it once did.
This coming from a fan of Honda.
04-04-10, 07:15 PM
#335
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Keep in mind that when looking at R&D spending, you won't see the full fruits or impact of that spending until several years later.
Hyundai spent quite a decent amount on R&D in 2005. They've recently had, and will continue to have some redesigned products. What's troubling is Hyundai reduced their R&D spending for 2007 and 2008. That means for 2012 and 2013 Hyundai will really be lacking products.
Coincidentally, 2012 and 2013 is when a large number of Toyota and Honda products will be getting redesigns.
One can only hope that the R&D Honda spent in 2008 will provide good products.
Toyota's massive spending on R&D in 2007 and 2008 means that some very significant new vehicles, redesigns and technology are coming in 2012 and 2013.
Due to the low R&D spending by Hyundai over 2008 and 2007, they will lose ground competitively in 2012 and 2013.
Hyundai spent quite a decent amount on R&D in 2005. They've recently had, and will continue to have some redesigned products. What's troubling is Hyundai reduced their R&D spending for 2007 and 2008. That means for 2012 and 2013 Hyundai will really be lacking products.
Coincidentally, 2012 and 2013 is when a large number of Toyota and Honda products will be getting redesigns.
One can only hope that the R&D Honda spent in 2008 will provide good products.
Toyota's massive spending on R&D in 2007 and 2008 means that some very significant new vehicles, redesigns and technology are coming in 2012 and 2013.
Due to the low R&D spending by Hyundai over 2008 and 2007, they will lose ground competitively in 2012 and 2013.
04-04-10, 07:49 PM
#336
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Well Honda has R&D for stuff like Asimo, lawn mowers, planes and their hydrogen effort.
It's clear the automobiles are getting minimal money.
It's clear the automobiles are getting minimal money.
04-04-10, 08:14 PM
#337
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GM will likely mismanage it's R&D spending.
Ford, Toyota, and VW are all spending huge amounts on R&D, so they should all benefit competitively in the next several years.
04-04-10, 08:39 PM
#338
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Eventually we'll get back on topic (perhaps we should make an R&D thread?) 
But I'm kinda surprised that VW's R&D is that high. Maybe a sign of things to come? But right now, they don't have much in the way of innovation. No hybrids, electrics, ect...No real tech advancements of any kind really. Just going with the flow.
But I'm kinda surprised that VW's R&D is that high. Maybe a sign of things to come? But right now, they don't have much in the way of innovation. No hybrids, electrics, ect...No real tech advancements of any kind really. Just going with the flow.
04-04-10, 08:52 PM
#339
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Vw does have hybrids now and new diesel engines. Thy also continue to have a product onslaught.
It also includes other brands they own;
Seat
Soda
Audi
Lambo
Bentley
They also have that huge new plan being built in TN.
I have to give it to them they are indeed heavy in R&D.
It also includes other brands they own;
Seat
Soda
Audi
Lambo
Bentley
They also have that huge new plan being built in TN.
I have to give it to them they are indeed heavy in R&D.
04-06-10, 07:46 PM
#341
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I saw the proposed prices at genesisowners.com. They priced it about $5,000 too high. LS460s get discounted into the high $50Ks. I was offered a $70K LS460 for $59K a few days ago. Few are going to pick a Hyundai over a Lexus for less than $5K difference. If the Equus started at $49K-$50K MSRP and then discount a few thousand more from there, then it would be price competitive. But having sat in one, the LS seems much more refined. As one person said, "I bet 80% of Equus sales goes to Korean-American adjossis in southern California." I think he's going to be right.
Also, keep in mind that the Equus won't sell at MSRP (just like the LS460 isn't) and the base version will have more things standard.
And as already stated, the Equus isn't meant to be a big seller, but a "halo" model until Hyundai launches a lux brand in 5-6 yrs time (to coincide w/ the launch of the next gen Genesis sedan and coupe, as well as a C Class/3 Series/IS competitor).
Anyway, for what it's worth, the 1st year's allotment of the Equus is already spoken for - anything interested in the Equus will be put on the waiting list for the next allotment.
The problem is w/ the less expensive GenCoupe (needs a power boost and a revised grill STAT).
i have to say the Equus looks nice, and the Genesis coupe is very sleek. sadly much of Hyundai's progress/success and praise came from such heavily-borrowed designs, and for that i can't say they've truly earned it or admire them because of that, at least for now, sorry.
Heck, even new Mercedes designs (F800, SLS and GL) borrow quite a bit.
No I got your point. Yes..lexus at one point took styling cues like the original LS and maybe the LS430. Other than that they have stopped. Hyundai has been doing this for how many of their cars now? We have the Genesis, the Equus, the Sonata, and the Veracruz to name some. Copying in the beginning to gain reputation is one thing. Copying again and again into the long run is another.
For instance, the GS w/ the quad circular headlights, the Avalon w/ the BMW "nub" taillights or the Rav-4 w/ the Chevy (or Hyundai HED-2) grill.
First of all, I don't agree that Lexus has ever copied MB. Anybody that makes this claim is probably confusing the original LS with W140 S class, which came out two years after the LS, and borrowed many of the LS styling cues. The original LS looks nothing like the antiquated W126 S class that was out at the time.
Except Hyindai. I have not seen a single innovation, a single new tech from them, ever. You have other companies competing to the tooth, with each of their new models trying to beat their competitors, just take LS/7/S - each new generation of these cars brings something new that their competitors do not have. And then Hyindai makes this Equius that brings nothing new, a blatant copy of other companies design and tech, and its supposed to be "progress"??? Sorry, its exact the opposite of progress.
And sure, Hyundai doesn't exactly have a long list of innovations, but it's still a developing auto company (it's like where Samsung Electronics was in the late 1990s/early 2000s).
While I give Hyundai tons of credit I also cannot dismiss some key facts like the Genesis is selling at 50% of its sales target. Again it shows that badge/prestige/image sells cars. It is what it is. People on the internet can blast it and say its silly but people want to be associated with ASPIRATIONAL brands.
Otoh, the coupe (which is not a luxury model) has been a total flop (so basically, the higher end Genesis has done quite a bit better).
Those of you saying it's hypocritical to criticize Hyundai here, why?
Hyundai has become an industry leader in copying other competitors, and offering almost nothing innovative.
Hyundai has perfected the art of copying others without being totally blatant. They use many suppliers of Japanese automakers, and they are spending very low amounts on R&D compared to the major automakers.
Hyundai has become an industry leader in copying other competitors, and offering almost nothing innovative.
Hyundai has perfected the art of copying others without being totally blatant. They use many suppliers of Japanese automakers, and they are spending very low amounts on R&D compared to the major automakers.
How many automakers have an in-house developed 6 spd AT?
4, including a JV by GM/Ford.
(Also, the Hyundai 6 spd AT is lighter and has less moving parts than most, if not all other 6 spd ATs).
Note - neither Honda or Nissan have one.
How many automakers have an in-house developed 8 spd AT?
In fact, according to many, Hyundai has done more the past couple of years than Honda.
With that in mind, of course Hyundai can offer value. That is because their overall expenses, including R&D expenses, are only a fraction of the major automakers they are competing against. Lower expenses gives them more room to undercut the competition. That advantage though is gradually eroding as Hyundai grows.
You're cherry picking numbers? You're comparing Hyundai in 2005, to Toyota in 2006, and Honda in 2007?
That Hyundai link is $4.8 billion AUS. The exchange rate for the Australian dollar to US dollar was roughly 0.75 in 2005. That would mean Hyundai spent 3.6 Billion USD in 2005.
Perhaps you should research the truth, and not slant the argument with biased numbers.
In 2008,
Toyota spent 10.58 billion USD on R&D.
Honda spent 6.49 billion USD on R&D.
VW spent 8.24 billion USD on R&D.
GM spent 8 billion USD on R&D.
Ford spent 7.3 billion USD on R&D.
Hyundai spent 1.74 billion USD on R&D.
That Hyundai link is $4.8 billion AUS. The exchange rate for the Australian dollar to US dollar was roughly 0.75 in 2005. That would mean Hyundai spent 3.6 Billion USD in 2005.
Perhaps you should research the truth, and not slant the argument with biased numbers.
In 2008,
Toyota spent 10.58 billion USD on R&D.
Honda spent 6.49 billion USD on R&D.
VW spent 8.24 billion USD on R&D.
GM spent 8 billion USD on R&D.
Ford spent 7.3 billion USD on R&D.
Hyundai spent 1.74 billion USD on R&D.
Hyundai has upped the R&D expenditures where it now comprises more than 5% of sales (on the high end for automakers) and
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p....4SCk&refer=uk
The group, which includes Hyundai Motor Co (005380.KS) and Kia Motors Corp (000270.KS), will spend 10.5 trillion won ($9.35 billion) in 2010, compared with 9.4 trillion won last year.
The conglomerate has allocated 4.6 trillion won for research and development, 53.3 percent more than last year, and 5.9 trillion won for equipment investments, it said.
The conglomerate has allocated 4.6 trillion won for research and development, 53.3 percent more than last year, and 5.9 trillion won for equipment investments, it said.
Also keep in mind that Toyota sales worldwide still dwarf that of Hyundai/Kia and Toyota's R&D expenditures need to cover many more models (including regional differentiations).
The numbers also show what R&D spending was for 2007. From 2007 to 2008, Toyota, VW, and Honda all increased their R&D spending. Hyundai remained flat with R&D spending.
So yes, Hyundai is spending only a fraction of the top automakers when it comes to R&D spending.
In both 2007 and 2008, Hyundai spent less than 2 billion USD each year on R&D.
So yes, Hyundai is spending only a fraction of the top automakers when it comes to R&D spending.
In both 2007 and 2008, Hyundai spent less than 2 billion USD each year on R&D.
For 2010, Hyundai has upped R&D significantly - where it is a little over 5% of sales - which is on the high end for automakers.
Last edited by YEH; 04-06-10 at 07:53 PM.
04-06-10, 08:51 PM
#342
Are you saying the LS430 that debuted in 01 was a clone of W140 S class, that was discontinued in 99 and was outsold by LS400? Right.
LS430 and W140 S class did not look similar at all. LS430 was merely an evolutionary design of the LS400, and if it does share a few styling cues with W140, its only because W140 borrowed them of the original LS400 in the first place.
04-06-10, 09:43 PM
#343
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^ That's funny - cuz the LS430 looks little like the LS400.
And neither does the LS460 in comparison to the 430 - Lexus went from a Mercedes look to a more BMW look, albeit toned down (which is why the LS460 and the toned down new 7 Series look similar from the side and rear).
And neither does the LS460 in comparison to the 430 - Lexus went from a Mercedes look to a more BMW look, albeit toned down (which is why the LS460 and the toned down new 7 Series look similar from the side and rear).
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