MT: 2010 SRX vs. RX 350
07-01-09, 01:09 PM
#46
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I'll take a souless appliance that is BY FAR quicker than the soulful one. We are talking a solid 2 second difference in performance. In other words the 2010 SRX accelerates like a 1999 RX 300.
If you buy a SUV to take some corners and b/c its sportier with less utility you need medicine prescribed. I have gotten NO pleasure driving any SUV fast or in corners if it was meant to be built for it or not. Its utterly stupid. Do some of them defy physics? Yes. I also don't want to eat test tube hamburgers!!!! I want the REAL thing! Saying a SUV is soulful is saying I can make SPAM taste just as good as a nice Ribeye. It's not easy to quantify and/or showcase [German] soul and "feel" on the internet in words. It's much easier to tout numbers, namely 0-60 times as "ultimate proof" to close the book. That's exactly what you are getting caught up in here.
A certain vehicle may have better "road-holding", it may stop faster from 60, it may accelerate better - but guess what? It may feels worse. It may feel "robotic", "electric", etc. The Brakes may be grabby, steering transitions in mid-corner may be handled much worse, steering effort and feel may be as light as a feather, ride feels like a "cheaper" car. All DASHOCKER was trying to get across is that to understand this in a thoughtful manner, one really needs to put down the glossy paper and go drive one for themselves, becuase in the end, these magazines / internet articles can only showcase and dictate so much. It's very easy to make grand conclusions on the internet from a few paragraphs and numbers one has read, but it's much harder to justify qualities that are only really present in the real world, under your own hands and feet. Just my opinion...
07-01-09, 01:19 PM
#47
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To conclude I think that it's good to have different opinions in a discussion because that makes it more interesting but stating something like:
"but the reality is there's nothing nice about feather light, weightless travel that has no feedback whatsoever."
Is just plain dumb.
Last edited by FKL; 07-01-09 at 01:24 PM.
07-01-09, 01:41 PM
#48
This whole "sporty SUV" argument is so ridiculous, especially with everyone who prefers "sporty SUVs" insinuating that "less-sporty SUVs" are for people who don't care about driving or cars.
WRONG.
If you're a purist you buy a Land Cruiser/GX/4Runner/Range Rover/Land Rover and park it next to your Corvette/Porsche/Lotus. THAT is a purist. THAT is an enthusiast. Buying an X5 M, ML 63 AMG, Cayenne S, all the way down to an RX 350, is someone who is making a compromise- accepting the best of neither to have some of both in one reasonable package.
All you people making the argument of "Well if I can have an SUV with 780HP that can lap the 'Ring in 5.32 minutes then it must be BOMB!" are fools. Seriously. If you want to get serious about driving, you're not going to do it in something that weighs 5.5K lbs and has 9 inches of ground clearance regardless of whether or not it has 1,000 hp.
Even cars like the M3, RS6, IS F, E 63, and M5 are a compromise. You're giving up performance, agility, and handling to have space, comfort, and luxury.
I like to call it like it is. If I want an SUV I will buy a BOF, traditional SUV that I can take camping, fishing, that can tow my boat, etc. If I want to buy a luxury car, I will buy one that is so smooth and coddling that it makes me do a double take as to whether I am in the drivers seat or floating on a cloud in heaven on Megan Fox's breasts. If I want a sports car, I will buy one that is as hard edged and performance oriented as possible. If I can't afford all of those I will either buy used or pick one or the other based on priorities, but I will NOT purchase an X5 M (or equivalent) and run around insinuating that it is a dynamically superior car to anything on the road, while touting it as an engineering feat/supercar because my "performance SUV" has 550hp. That is FOOLISH and an oxymoron.
So many of the German car fans tout this intangible, immeasureable "feel" of cars and berate Lexus based on that, while also telling me I should buy an X5M over a Corvette ZO6 because it has more horsepower, twin turbos, and big 20 inch wheels. Irony, anyone? Only a brickhead would talk about a Cayenne GTS or M/AMG SUV like some true performance machine for true enthusiasts.
Moral of the story: Let's not make it look like everyone who buys an RX350 needs to have their head examined or is on a death watch. People have different priorities for different cars. The guy across the street from me has a Viper SRT-10 and guess what is parked next to it? A 2RX. Want to tell me that he is some sissy with no personality who hates driving?
End Rant.
WRONG.
If you're a purist you buy a Land Cruiser/GX/4Runner/Range Rover/Land Rover and park it next to your Corvette/Porsche/Lotus. THAT is a purist. THAT is an enthusiast. Buying an X5 M, ML 63 AMG, Cayenne S, all the way down to an RX 350, is someone who is making a compromise- accepting the best of neither to have some of both in one reasonable package.
All you people making the argument of "Well if I can have an SUV with 780HP that can lap the 'Ring in 5.32 minutes then it must be BOMB!" are fools. Seriously. If you want to get serious about driving, you're not going to do it in something that weighs 5.5K lbs and has 9 inches of ground clearance regardless of whether or not it has 1,000 hp.
Even cars like the M3, RS6, IS F, E 63, and M5 are a compromise. You're giving up performance, agility, and handling to have space, comfort, and luxury.
I like to call it like it is. If I want an SUV I will buy a BOF, traditional SUV that I can take camping, fishing, that can tow my boat, etc. If I want to buy a luxury car, I will buy one that is so smooth and coddling that it makes me do a double take as to whether I am in the drivers seat or floating on a cloud in heaven on Megan Fox's breasts. If I want a sports car, I will buy one that is as hard edged and performance oriented as possible. If I can't afford all of those I will either buy used or pick one or the other based on priorities, but I will NOT purchase an X5 M (or equivalent) and run around insinuating that it is a dynamically superior car to anything on the road, while touting it as an engineering feat/supercar because my "performance SUV" has 550hp. That is FOOLISH and an oxymoron.
So many of the German car fans tout this intangible, immeasureable "feel" of cars and berate Lexus based on that, while also telling me I should buy an X5M over a Corvette ZO6 because it has more horsepower, twin turbos, and big 20 inch wheels. Irony, anyone? Only a brickhead would talk about a Cayenne GTS or M/AMG SUV like some true performance machine for true enthusiasts.
Moral of the story: Let's not make it look like everyone who buys an RX350 needs to have their head examined or is on a death watch. People have different priorities for different cars. The guy across the street from me has a Viper SRT-10 and guess what is parked next to it? A 2RX. Want to tell me that he is some sissy with no personality who hates driving?
End Rant.
07-01-09, 01:54 PM
#50
As far as not being able to criticize a vehicle because "that's how the engineers designed it" - well suffice to say I am puzzled by this statement.
The impression they give is that Lexus is somehow incapable of producing a sportier vehicle, when this isn’t the case. They specifically choose to design their vehicles as such, and the argument you’re referring to, acknowledges this.
What the automotive press is saying, is that the compromise is too great in Lexus vehicles…and yet most American consumers speaking with their wallets, are saying differently (though obviously tied to a few more merits). If the Lexus engineers wanted to weigh down, or even do away with power steering, completely, they certainly could, and provide all the feel with the world— but all while alienating a host of their customers. I think their current marketing position justifies their current philosophy, as the market is big enough for the BMWs of the market and also the Lexus’.
Is every single negative aspect of a vehicle off the table for discussion because the person doing the criticizing "doesn't know what the engineers intended"? What if I don't LIKE what the engineers "intended" (in this case, poor road manners)?
If the poor road manners of the RX are "intended and built in", why doesn't Lexus make a big fuss over them in their marketing message?
07-01-09, 02:01 PM
#51
It's funny because he is nearly as passionate about the RX as he is about the Viper. He will talk all day long about how smooth, quiet, comfortable, and easy to use it is. He'll tell you how he and his wife take it to Ohio to see their family and love it because it's so quiet and comfortable for long term trips. He never forgets to mention that he also gets 24mpg combined, and over 30 on those road trips out of the state. Then he will also tell you how reliable it has been, and how he has never had to do any maintenance aside from what is scheduled. He loves it because it is everything his Viper is NOT, and there is nothing wrong with being passionate or happy about those things.
07-01-09, 02:24 PM
#52
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RX is a soccer mom car, and very successful at it, I would think most women drivers do not prefer underboosted/more"sporty" steering. Most would prefer a more relaxed and easy kind of driving.
Sportiness DOES NOT equate superiority or inferiority, it's a PREFERENCE, and each vehicle is designed to cater to their target market.
Sportiness DOES NOT equate superiority or inferiority, it's a PREFERENCE, and each vehicle is designed to cater to their target market.
On the contrary take the X3 for example a BMW who got torn apart in reviews b/c they advertised and presented it as sporty and it was horrible. Only did later revisions partially fix this.
So whats worse?
The SUV not pretending to be something it isn't or the SUV pretending? The thing is with the RX the platform is there for an vehicle that could exhibit some feedback and maybe a few ounces of "fun". I mean, they already stated that it has enough grip, Lexus just continues to fail in the steering department. If they weighted it up and added more feel and retooled the suspension, the RX itself is not impossible to feel at the very least competent, if not sporty. Why they cannot do this is beyond me. I've seen all sorts of excuses why heavy steering is a bad thing (it's too heavy, I get tired, etc.), but the reality is there's nothing nice about feather light, weightless travel that has no feedback whatsoever. In fact, it can be downright scary when you are actually pushing a car, the steering wheel moving from side to side on center with all kinds of slop and no movement of the wheels at all. Just because this is an SUV, I don't think it's "too much to ask" for steering feedback, nor is it in some realm called "sporty", just driving feedback that at the very least has the driver feeling somewhat connected to the wheels in front.
As far as not being able to criticize a vehicle because "that's how the engineers designed it" - well suffice to say I am puzzled by this statement. Is every single negative aspect of a vehicle off the table for discussion because the person doing the criticizing "doesn't know what the engineers intended"? What if I don't LIKE what the engineers "intended" (in this case, poor road manners)? And really, most of what "engineers intend" also double as selling points. If the poor road manners of the RX are "intended and built in", why doesn't Lexus make a big fuss over them in their marketing message? BMW CLEARLY markets the performance they build into their vehicles? The answer is that it's nothing to be wielding in the face of the press, it's not impressive, and you don't trumpet things that are clearly negative aspects, which is what the dynamic range of the RX seemingly equates to.
As far as not being able to criticize a vehicle because "that's how the engineers designed it" - well suffice to say I am puzzled by this statement. Is every single negative aspect of a vehicle off the table for discussion because the person doing the criticizing "doesn't know what the engineers intended"? What if I don't LIKE what the engineers "intended" (in this case, poor road manners)? And really, most of what "engineers intend" also double as selling points. If the poor road manners of the RX are "intended and built in", why doesn't Lexus make a big fuss over them in their marketing message? BMW CLEARLY markets the performance they build into their vehicles? The answer is that it's nothing to be wielding in the face of the press, it's not impressive, and you don't trumpet things that are clearly negative aspects, which is what the dynamic range of the RX seemingly equates to.
same mag to call teh X6 and FX etc completely pointless. So they call it as they see it.
This whole "sporty SUV" argument is so ridiculous, especially with everyone who prefers "sporty SUVs" insinuating that "less-sporty SUVs" are for people who don't care about driving or cars.
WRONG.
If you're a purist you buy a Land Cruiser/GX/4Runner/Range Rover/Land Rover and park it next to your Corvette/Porsche/Lotus. THAT is a purist. THAT is an enthusiast. Buying an X5 M, ML 63 AMG, Cayenne S, all the way down to an RX 350, is someone who is making a compromise- accepting the best of neither to have some of both in one reasonable package.
All you people making the argument of "Well if I can have an SUV with 780HP that can lap the 'Ring in 5.32 minutes then it must be BOMB!" are fools. Seriously. If you want to get serious about driving, you're not going to do it in something that weighs 5.5K lbs and has 9 inches of ground clearance regardless of whether or not it has 1,000 hp.
Even cars like the M3, RS6, IS F, E 63, and M5 are a compromise. You're giving up performance, agility, and handling to have space, comfort, and luxury.
I like to call it like it is. If I want an SUV I will buy a BOF, traditional SUV that I can take camping, fishing, that can tow my boat, etc. If I want to buy a luxury car, I will buy one that is so smooth and coddling that it makes me do a double take as to whether I am in the drivers seat or floating on a cloud in heaven on Megan Fox's breasts. If I want a sports car, I will buy one that is as hard edged and performance oriented as possible. If I can't afford all of those I will either buy used or pick one or the other based on priorities, but I will NOT purchase an X5 M (or equivalent) and run around insinuating that it is a dynamically superior car to anything on the road, while touting it as an engineering feat/supercar because my "performance SUV" has 550hp. That is FOOLISH and an oxymoron.
So many of the German car fans tout this intangible, immeasureable "feel" of cars and berate Lexus based on that, while also telling me I should buy an X5M over a Corvette ZO6 because it has more horsepower, twin turbos, and big 20 inch wheels. Irony, anyone? Only a brickhead would talk about a Cayenne GTS or M/AMG SUV like some true performance machine for true enthusiasts.
Moral of the story: Let's not make it look like everyone who buys an RX350 needs to have their head examined or is on a death watch. People have different priorities for different cars. The guy across the street from me has a Viper SRT-10 and guess what is parked next to it? A 2RX. Want to tell me that he is some sissy with no personality who hates driving?
End Rant.
WRONG.
If you're a purist you buy a Land Cruiser/GX/4Runner/Range Rover/Land Rover and park it next to your Corvette/Porsche/Lotus. THAT is a purist. THAT is an enthusiast. Buying an X5 M, ML 63 AMG, Cayenne S, all the way down to an RX 350, is someone who is making a compromise- accepting the best of neither to have some of both in one reasonable package.
All you people making the argument of "Well if I can have an SUV with 780HP that can lap the 'Ring in 5.32 minutes then it must be BOMB!" are fools. Seriously. If you want to get serious about driving, you're not going to do it in something that weighs 5.5K lbs and has 9 inches of ground clearance regardless of whether or not it has 1,000 hp.
Even cars like the M3, RS6, IS F, E 63, and M5 are a compromise. You're giving up performance, agility, and handling to have space, comfort, and luxury.
I like to call it like it is. If I want an SUV I will buy a BOF, traditional SUV that I can take camping, fishing, that can tow my boat, etc. If I want to buy a luxury car, I will buy one that is so smooth and coddling that it makes me do a double take as to whether I am in the drivers seat or floating on a cloud in heaven on Megan Fox's breasts. If I want a sports car, I will buy one that is as hard edged and performance oriented as possible. If I can't afford all of those I will either buy used or pick one or the other based on priorities, but I will NOT purchase an X5 M (or equivalent) and run around insinuating that it is a dynamically superior car to anything on the road, while touting it as an engineering feat/supercar because my "performance SUV" has 550hp. That is FOOLISH and an oxymoron.
So many of the German car fans tout this intangible, immeasureable "feel" of cars and berate Lexus based on that, while also telling me I should buy an X5M over a Corvette ZO6 because it has more horsepower, twin turbos, and big 20 inch wheels. Irony, anyone? Only a brickhead would talk about a Cayenne GTS or M/AMG SUV like some true performance machine for true enthusiasts.
Moral of the story: Let's not make it look like everyone who buys an RX350 needs to have their head examined or is on a death watch. People have different priorities for different cars. The guy across the street from me has a Viper SRT-10 and guess what is parked next to it? A 2RX. Want to tell me that he is some sissy with no personality who hates driving?
End Rant.
Even as Lexus offers sportier suspensions, bigger wheels, better steering, asshats continue to complain.
GUESS WHAT THE RX IS NOT FOR YOU SO STICK A CAN IN IT! I am not going to continuously ***** and ***** about the FX/EX/X6/X3 etc for being useless. Its not for me.
It’s not so much criticism of the vehicle because of the engineering intentions, but rather the value in a discussion which highlights ‘beating’ the cliche Lexus in feel and feedback, when the brand has been notorious for making both of those a lesser priority...not by chance, or because the engineers are incapable, but by choice.
The impression they give is that Lexus is somehow incapable of producing a sportier vehicle, when this isn’t the case. They specifically choose to design their vehicles as such, and the argument you’re referring to, acknowledges this.
What the automotive press is saying, is that the compromise is too great in Lexus vehicles…and yet most American consumers speaking with their wallets, are saying differently (though obviously tied to a few more merits). If the Lexus engineers wanted to weigh down, or even do away with power steering, completely, they certainly could, and provide all the feel with the world— but all while alienating a host of their customers. I think their current marketing position justifies their current philosophy, as the market is big enough for the BMWs of the market and also the Lexus’.
Buy a different vehicle? Just as the next person who doesn’t like heavy steering and dynamic driving, may consider a Lexus. Within reason, there is no wrong or right way to build a vehicle-- Lexus, again, is simply building what a sizeable chunk of the population wants. Some don't, and thats why other makes exist, are dominant in other markets, and then market various categories of vehicles.
They do, which is why among other sales pitches, Lexus has established a reputation of easy to drive vehicles which accommodate and comfort the driver. Their choice of wording is pretty clever, as they're obviously not going to dismiss a BMW owner considering their product, but reading through their e-brochures and even in specific articles of their lifestyle magazines, its pretty apparent what type of consumer they are speaking to.
The impression they give is that Lexus is somehow incapable of producing a sportier vehicle, when this isn’t the case. They specifically choose to design their vehicles as such, and the argument you’re referring to, acknowledges this.
What the automotive press is saying, is that the compromise is too great in Lexus vehicles…and yet most American consumers speaking with their wallets, are saying differently (though obviously tied to a few more merits). If the Lexus engineers wanted to weigh down, or even do away with power steering, completely, they certainly could, and provide all the feel with the world— but all while alienating a host of their customers. I think their current marketing position justifies their current philosophy, as the market is big enough for the BMWs of the market and also the Lexus’.
Buy a different vehicle? Just as the next person who doesn’t like heavy steering and dynamic driving, may consider a Lexus. Within reason, there is no wrong or right way to build a vehicle-- Lexus, again, is simply building what a sizeable chunk of the population wants. Some don't, and thats why other makes exist, are dominant in other markets, and then market various categories of vehicles.
They do, which is why among other sales pitches, Lexus has established a reputation of easy to drive vehicles which accommodate and comfort the driver. Their choice of wording is pretty clever, as they're obviously not going to dismiss a BMW owner considering their product, but reading through their e-brochures and even in specific articles of their lifestyle magazines, its pretty apparent what type of consumer they are speaking to.
WTF is wrong with the Lexus execution of the RX.The RX outsells ENTIRE luxury brands. EVERY BRAND wishes they had a RX.
It's funny because he is nearly as passionate about the RX as he is about the Viper. He will talk all day long about how smooth, quiet, comfortable, and easy to use it is. He'll tell you how he and his wife take it to Ohio to see their family and love it because it's so quiet and comfortable for long term trips. He never forgets to mention that he also gets 24mpg combined, and over 30 on those road trips out of the state. Then he will also tell you how reliable it has been, and how he has never had to do any maintenance aside from what is scheduled. He loves it because it is everything his Viper is NOT, and there is nothing wrong with being passionate or happy about those things.
So we should butt hump the even more common 3 series and not celebrate the RX for being as successful?
Seriously, WTF?
07-01-09, 02:51 PM
#53
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Interesting. Anyone else think this review reeked of bias?
The Lexus RX performs better and is more efficient - and yet it lost out because of fun-factor and dynamics? I've not touched a Motor Trend magazine in ages but I hear they're going down the drain.
I'm sure the Lexus has competent driving dynamics. Nothing extremely sporty but probably not as soft as most magazines describe it to be. I don't doubt that the Cadillac SRX is sportier and the better handler, but does it really matter in this niche? I don't think so. These are family-oriented cars and my money says that the vast majority of buyers won't "overdo" it when it comes to handling and driving in a sporty manor.
The Lexus RX performs better and is more efficient - and yet it lost out because of fun-factor and dynamics? I've not touched a Motor Trend magazine in ages but I hear they're going down the drain.
I'm sure the Lexus has competent driving dynamics. Nothing extremely sporty but probably not as soft as most magazines describe it to be. I don't doubt that the Cadillac SRX is sportier and the better handler, but does it really matter in this niche? I don't think so. These are family-oriented cars and my money says that the vast majority of buyers won't "overdo" it when it comes to handling and driving in a sporty manor.
Anyway, kudos to Lexus for continuing the success of the RX, despite it being one of the least attractive models on the market today w/ its baleen grille and droopy face (the 1st and 2nd gen RX models were better done exterior design-wise).
07-02-09, 07:24 AM
#54
Lexus Test Driver
07-02-09, 10:50 AM
#55
Lexus Test Driver
As long as the RX is the # 1 selling entry level luxury SUV in the US market, Lexus will not change much. There is obviously a market for this type of SUV.
As long as we are talking about the design engineer's intend, let’s look at the MDX and the FX. Both of these SUV were has design intension to perform, buy still come up short when compare to the German counter parts. So maybe Lexus made a smart choice. Instead of spending million in R&D to try to compete with BMW and Audi, they choose to go into a different direction.
As long as we are talking about the design engineer's intend, let’s look at the MDX and the FX. Both of these SUV were has design intension to perform, buy still come up short when compare to the German counter parts. So maybe Lexus made a smart choice. Instead of spending million in R&D to try to compete with BMW and Audi, they choose to go into a different direction.
07-02-09, 10:59 AM
#56
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As long as the RX is the # 1 selling entry level luxury SUV in the US market, Lexus will not change much. There is obviously a market for this type of SUV.
As long as we are talking about the design engineer's intend, let’s look at the MDX and the FX. Both of these SUV were has design intension to perform, buy still come up short when compare to the German counter parts. So maybe Lexus made a smart choice. Instead of spending million in R&D to try to compete with BMW and Audi, they choose to go into a different direction.
As long as we are talking about the design engineer's intend, let’s look at the MDX and the FX. Both of these SUV were has design intension to perform, buy still come up short when compare to the German counter parts. So maybe Lexus made a smart choice. Instead of spending million in R&D to try to compete with BMW and Audi, they choose to go into a different direction.
The ML debuted before it but was truck based and as well know the first gen was a complete and utter POS. Its clear different strokes for different folks and it seems people much prefer a sporty German SUV than one from Infiniti or Acura.
I mean it took TEN years after the first RX for Audi to come with the Q5?
07-02-09, 11:06 AM
#57
Lexus Test Driver
You mean BMW/Audi didn't want to compete with the RX. The RX debuted in 1999 the first car based luxury SUV. The ML debuted before it but was truck based and as well know the first gen was a complete and utter POS.
Its clear different strokes for different folks and it seems people much prefer a sporty German SUV than one from Infiniti or Acura.
I mean it took TEN years after the first RX for Audi to come with the Q5?
The ML debuted before it but was truck based and as well know the first gen was a complete and utter POS. Its clear different strokes for different folks and it seems people much prefer a sporty German SUV than one from Infiniti or Acura.
I mean it took TEN years after the first RX for Audi to come with the Q5?
07-02-09, 11:18 AM
#58
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Only in the US we can get into a discussion about how SUVs/crossovers can be fun to drive and excellent at corners...
THAT's WHAT THE WAGONS ARE FOR!
Yeah thanks BMW for introducing the X5M and X6M to us while what you should've done is bring over the M5 wagon and make a M3 wagon...
THAT's WHAT THE WAGONS ARE FOR!
Yeah thanks BMW for introducing the X5M and X6M to us while what you should've done is bring over the M5 wagon and make a M3 wagon...
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