why cars are getting bigger and heavier
07-01-09, 08:58 PM
#16
Lexus Fanatic
TODAY's cars........big?
Nonsense.
People today don't know what a big car is. Take a look at some of the full-sized luxury cars I grew up with. These were regular production cars, not stretched limos. Even today's Suburbans and Expeditions can't match their length or width, although they do match their weight.
Nonsense.
People today don't know what a big car is. Take a look at some of the full-sized luxury cars I grew up with. These were regular production cars, not stretched limos. Even today's Suburbans and Expeditions can't match their length or width, although they do match their weight.
Does she beep when she walks backwards?
07-02-09, 08:31 AM
#19
Lexus Champion
That is BS that usually alignment shops make up for when they can't get a car aligned right and don't want to fool with it any more (usually insurance case where car was heavily damaged and the frame has not/ could not be straightened properly so they just half-a** it to collect instead). I've had a 350 pound man sit in his car while I did an alignment and there was almost no difference on the readings from the machine from when he wasn't in the car.
I've heard of the problem happening with brand new vehicles right off the showroom floor.
07-02-09, 09:23 AM
#20
Drive weight definitely affects alignment but it depends on the spring rate also. Have a 350lb man sit in an ES350 and an ISF. I bet the ISF is able to retain its alignment better. Whether the difference is small or not, is up to the weight of the driver and the car itself. Having done plenty of alignments myself, there is a difference though not a HUGE one. 
Anyways, with all these safety regulations, are sports cars like the Lotus Exige exempt from it? I've been in one and it felt sort of like a death trap.
Anyways, with all these safety regulations, are sports cars like the Lotus Exige exempt from it? I've been in one and it felt sort of like a death trap.
07-02-09, 01:16 PM
#21
Lexus Fanatic
07-02-09, 01:24 PM
#22
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No argument, there were some VERY big cars in the ... some years before my life-time.
But I think what we're talking about here is the size & weight of something like a compact car. I remember one time I was in my friends' MKII MR2 and a Yaris hatch pulled up beside us, the thing was massive in comparasson. The problem I see is the small econo cars that are a small shape and not actually a small car. Even when I'm driving around in my IS, there will be something like a civic near by and it's a little bigger than I am.
Random after thought: How big is the HS in comparrason to the IS300?
But I think what we're talking about here is the size & weight of something like a compact car. I remember one time I was in my friends' MKII MR2 and a Yaris hatch pulled up beside us, the thing was massive in comparasson. The problem I see is the small econo cars that are a small shape and not actually a small car. Even when I'm driving around in my IS, there will be something like a civic near by and it's a little bigger than I am.
Random after thought: How big is the HS in comparrason to the IS300?
07-02-09, 11:39 PM
#23
Lexus Fanatic
Today we laugh at the underpowered cars of yesteryear but we forget these cars were 20-30% lighter back in the day.
Less weight improves every aspect of vehicle performance. Braking, acceleration, handling, fuel efficiency... the list goes on and on
Less weight improves every aspect of vehicle performance. Braking, acceleration, handling, fuel efficiency... the list goes on and on
07-03-09, 12:17 AM
#24
Out of Warranty
A friend took me for a ride in his Smart Car. We probably should have had calliope music blasting from the stereo because at over six feet and 300 lbs apiece, we probably looked like a clown act rolling down the boulevard.
Surprisingly, there was a fair amount of room in the car, and performance while never stellar, was acceptable for an economy commuter. Cargo space was limited to a couple of briefcases, or maybe a couple bags of groceries, so it's not much of a hauler. It is incredibly short, but fairly generous in width - with an obvious interior drawn around some pretty high percentile adults.
I've always driven fairly small cars because large (American) cars handled so poorly I was uncomfortable in them. Cabin design CAN be worked around larger people with a little bit of effort. I suspect that's part of the popularity of mid-sized SUVs. They tend to higher, more upright seating, and larger door openings that don't require a deep squat-thrust to enter.
Surprisingly, there was a fair amount of room in the car, and performance while never stellar, was acceptable for an economy commuter. Cargo space was limited to a couple of briefcases, or maybe a couple bags of groceries, so it's not much of a hauler. It is incredibly short, but fairly generous in width - with an obvious interior drawn around some pretty high percentile adults.
I've always driven fairly small cars because large (American) cars handled so poorly I was uncomfortable in them. Cabin design CAN be worked around larger people with a little bit of effort. I suspect that's part of the popularity of mid-sized SUVs. They tend to higher, more upright seating, and larger door openings that don't require a deep squat-thrust to enter.
07-03-09, 06:26 AM
#25
Lexus Fanatic
Not quite. All other things equal, greater weight does mean more sluggish acceleration, braking, and handling, and poorer mileage, but it also means better ride comfort, more safety in an accident, and better stability/tracking.
Like many other things in car design, there are trade-offs.
07-03-09, 06:54 AM
#26
Super Moderator
A running joke at my track back in Tlalnepantla was that you could drop 10 pounds off of your vehicle by removing things, but you would regain those 10 pounds right back the following week in your stomach.
07-03-09, 08:41 AM
#27
Lexus Champion
Not quite. All other things equal, greater weight does mean more sluggish acceleration, braking, and handling, and poorer mileage, but it also means better ride comfort, more safety in an accident, and better stability/tracking.
Like many other things in car design, there are trade-offs.
Like many other things in car design, there are trade-offs.
Yes in general cars that weigh more also ride better, and cars that are low in weight ride worse, but that's got more to do with the types of vehicles they are... higher weight cars usually have longer wheel bases, less of a focus on fuel economy and more of a focus on ride comfort, more sound absorption, less sporty suspension, more weight for the engineers to work with when designing the chassis and suspension, etc. But the net effect of improved ride quality is really due to the design, not the curb weight. If it was the weight then medium to large sized commercial vehicles would ride like a dream.
If you took a Honda Civic and changed nothing except added 1000 pounds of concrete to it and then told the engineers to compensate only using suspension tuning... there's no way they could keep the ride/handling equation as balanced as it was before.Granted yes if the weight is "spent" on ride related components such as chassis strength, etc then it will improve the ride... but by the same token when we say "weight reduction improves braking" we are assuming that the weight is not being reduced by giving the car smaller brakes.
07-03-09, 09:47 AM
#28
Guest
Posts: n/a
Gets on soapbox.....
Great thread bit.
We have a HUGE cultural difference here. America and America's roads are big. We drive big, we have huge highways etc. Small cars were NEVER welcomed UNTIL the 1970s fuel crisis (it was rare, like some English roadsters, Mustang etc). Until then, cars were 20 feet long In contrast Europe and Japans roads are small. Parking is at a premium. Cars are also expensive to run. Fuel costs more. It all adds to a philosophy of SMALL.
The fuel crisis meant SHRINK and shrink cars did. Engines did as well. Possibly the worst of both worlds? We can pretty much all agree most cars in the mid 70s and most of the 80s were simply not desirable. Until that point cars were big, inefficient and gas in America was CHEAP!! American automaker management for the most part had their heads up their asses that things will always be that way.
Lets fast forward to the 1990s with the debut of Lexus and another part of why cars are bigger. Here was a brand that offered you a bigger car for less money. The ES was pitched against the 3 but was 10 inches longer. The LS was bigger than the E by 8 inches but thousands less.
The Japanese many times bring TO AMERICA what Americans want. Bigger cars but for LESS money. They quickly got hip to the fact Americans love big cars. Has anyone ever seen a new Camry or Accord parked next to an older one? The difference is immense!! The new Camry/Accord are Japanese FORD TAURSES in size!!
Well with technology improving by leaps and bounds, carmakers can sell us bigger/heavier/more complicated cars with the same MPG. They know consumers don't really care about "weight". They DO care about POWER. HP sells cars. Its easier to advertise. It sells.
Which brings me to my next point. Car magazines are encrusted in American psyche in regards to cars. Do we EVER see car mag with huge captions on the cover;
-New Corvette only weighs 3100lbs
-New 370Z lighter than before
-New Maxima (1996) only weighs 3000 lbs
etc etc
No we don't. What we do hear month after month, year after year is the same sheep crap
-New Corvette makes 550hp
-New 370Z makes 330hp
-New Maxima makes 190hp
Yadda yadda butt humping performance. You might get a sentence or two about the cars weight.
Personally, lets take my 3GS for example. I am 6"5 240. I don't mind small cars but I like midsize cars. I really don't want/need a big car now. I fit PERFECTLY FINE in my 3GS. I can adjust the seat, hang my arm out the window in total comfort. I've sat in the back and its fine, cozy but fine.
Here is what I've read about my car;
-"oh its small inside"
-"oh it has no headroom, the competition is bigger"
-"the GS is the same size as last, everything else is bigger, this is dumb"
Now I am not here to knock anyone for choosing a bigger car. I do question motives though. My 3GS mostly has me in it. Then my G/F and me. Rarely is everyone in the back. I love the "cozy" feel of a coupe, it provides me with a sporty feel. The car warms/cools down faster since there is less room to heat/cool. I've yet to have anyone complain of room, even when I have 5 people in the car.
Maybe cause I don't have pussies riding in my car? It seems Americans think we just deserve better and better and better. I remember having 5 maybe 6 people in my Sentra has a teen. We didn't complain, we laughed it off and rode out. Its funny to think the original Mini Cooper was that small and people loved it. My father tells me stories of them fitting 5 people in it on the way to parties etc and they didn't complain. They were just happy to have a car.
So part of it is people have become pussies.
Another part is perceived safety and the lack of people wanting to learn how to drive. Getting a license DOES NOT mean you know how to drive. It just means you passed a test to get a license. There was a sad story here when an asshat in an Acura Integra was racing and hit a huge Ford Excursion. If everyone remembers the Excursion is the size of a house. Well sadly, I believe 4 or 5 people died in the Excursion in the accident. The Integra owner was fine.
When you talk to people, they TRULY believe bigger cars are safer. They don't read any test results, they don't care, they just KNOW, "bigger is better" and "I'd rather kill you in my big *** car/truck/SUV if I get in an accident then take some driving courses or learn how to drive, or get off my damn phone and pay attention. I'd rather be lazy and just by bigger.
Which car companies have responded to in America.
There are some cars with just **** poor design where the engineers either are told "don't make it better" or the car company just doesn't care. Not picking on the G35/37 here but has anyone really thought about the dimensions of the G37 coupe? Here is a car with what a 110" wheelbase (HUGE), its substantially bigger in width, height, length than the 3 series coupe. Park them next to one another. Drive both. The difference is obvious.
The G35/37 has a backseat for midgets, a useless trunk and just no space. In comparison the SMALLER 3 series has a far more useable backseat, front area and bigger trunk. The 3 is also as safe, is more efficient and faster.
Seriously, its quite embarrassing when you think about which engineers are better. Its clear BMW engineers are working to be a world beater and the Infiniti ones are Nissan engineers who passed some easy test to get a promotion.
This is one of those examples where I agree with the Germans fans that they design better cars. Why the hell is the G37 coupe so big if it offers less in everything to the 3?
Why? It gets back to my point. Its cheaper to sell a bigger vehicle to Americans and advertise "WE HAVE MORE HP" than build a BETTER one that the competition.
With new economy standards, we should see another shift like in the 1970s to smaller vehicles.
I agree with bit that people are getting bigger and the points about more safety. However I don't believe that is the main or only issue.
Its the Psyche that bigger is better.
Let me finish with saying DAMNIT this is AMERICA and I'm not going to say we all need small cars and small cars are God and Europe/Japan is right.
Hell no. I do wish people would really look at true needs/wants and do more research before just plucking down on a giant vehicle.
Oh and put down that Big Mac
Great thread bit.
We have a HUGE cultural difference here. America and America's roads are big. We drive big, we have huge highways etc. Small cars were NEVER welcomed UNTIL the 1970s fuel crisis (it was rare, like some English roadsters, Mustang etc). Until then, cars were 20 feet long
In contrast Europe and Japans roads are small. Parking is at a premium. Cars are also expensive to run. Fuel costs more. It all adds to a philosophy of SMALL. The fuel crisis meant SHRINK and shrink cars did. Engines did as well. Possibly the worst of both worlds? We can pretty much all agree most cars in the mid 70s and most of the 80s were simply not desirable. Until that point cars were big, inefficient and gas in America was CHEAP!! American automaker management for the most part had their heads up their asses that things will always be that way.
Lets fast forward to the 1990s with the debut of Lexus and another part of why cars are bigger. Here was a brand that offered you a bigger car for less money. The ES was pitched against the 3 but was 10 inches longer. The LS was bigger than the E by 8 inches but thousands less.
The Japanese many times bring TO AMERICA what Americans want. Bigger cars but for LESS money. They quickly got hip to the fact Americans love big cars. Has anyone ever seen a new Camry or Accord parked next to an older one? The difference is immense!! The new Camry/Accord are Japanese FORD TAURSES in size!!
Well with technology improving by leaps and bounds, carmakers can sell us bigger/heavier/more complicated cars with the same MPG. They know consumers don't really care about "weight". They DO care about POWER. HP sells cars. Its easier to advertise. It sells.
Which brings me to my next point. Car magazines are encrusted in American psyche in regards to cars. Do we EVER see car mag with huge captions on the cover;
-New Corvette only weighs 3100lbs
-New 370Z lighter than before
-New Maxima (1996) only weighs 3000 lbs
etc etc
No we don't. What we do hear month after month, year after year is the same sheep crap
-New Corvette makes 550hp
-New 370Z makes 330hp
-New Maxima makes 190hp
Yadda yadda butt humping performance. You might get a sentence or two about the cars weight.
Personally, lets take my 3GS for example. I am 6"5 240. I don't mind small cars but I like midsize cars. I really don't want/need a big car now. I fit PERFECTLY FINE in my 3GS. I can adjust the seat, hang my arm out the window in total comfort. I've sat in the back and its fine, cozy but fine.
Here is what I've read about my car;
-"oh its small inside"
-"oh it has no headroom, the competition is bigger"
-"the GS is the same size as last, everything else is bigger, this is dumb"
Now I am not here to knock anyone for choosing a bigger car. I do question motives though. My 3GS mostly has me in it. Then my G/F and me. Rarely is everyone in the back. I love the "cozy" feel of a coupe, it provides me with a sporty feel. The car warms/cools down faster since there is less room to heat/cool. I've yet to have anyone complain of room, even when I have 5 people in the car.
Maybe cause I don't have pussies riding in my car? It seems Americans think we just deserve better and better and better. I remember having 5 maybe 6 people in my Sentra has a teen. We didn't complain, we laughed it off and rode out. Its funny to think the original Mini Cooper was that small and people loved it. My father tells me stories of them fitting 5 people in it on the way to parties etc and they didn't complain. They were just happy to have a car.
So part of it is people have become pussies.
Another part is perceived safety and the lack of people wanting to learn how to drive. Getting a license DOES NOT mean you know how to drive. It just means you passed a test to get a license. There was a sad story here when an asshat in an Acura Integra was racing and hit a huge Ford Excursion. If everyone remembers the Excursion is the size of a house. Well sadly, I believe 4 or 5 people died in the Excursion in the accident. The Integra owner was fine.
When you talk to people, they TRULY believe bigger cars are safer. They don't read any test results, they don't care, they just KNOW, "bigger is better" and "I'd rather kill you in my big *** car/truck/SUV if I get in an accident then take some driving courses or learn how to drive, or get off my damn phone and pay attention. I'd rather be lazy and just by bigger.
Which car companies have responded to in America.
There are some cars with just **** poor design where the engineers either are told "don't make it better" or the car company just doesn't care. Not picking on the G35/37 here but has anyone really thought about the dimensions of the G37 coupe? Here is a car with what a 110" wheelbase (HUGE), its substantially bigger in width, height, length than the 3 series coupe. Park them next to one another. Drive both. The difference is obvious.
The G35/37 has a backseat for midgets, a useless trunk and just no space. In comparison the SMALLER 3 series has a far more useable backseat, front area and bigger trunk. The 3 is also as safe, is more efficient and faster.
Seriously, its quite embarrassing when you think about which engineers are better. Its clear BMW engineers are working to be a world beater and the Infiniti ones are Nissan engineers who passed some easy test to get a promotion.
This is one of those examples where I agree with the Germans fans that they design better cars. Why the hell is the G37 coupe so big if it offers less in everything to the 3?
Why? It gets back to my point. Its cheaper to sell a bigger vehicle to Americans and advertise "WE HAVE MORE HP" than build a BETTER one that the competition.
With new economy standards, we should see another shift like in the 1970s to smaller vehicles.
I agree with bit that people are getting bigger and the points about more safety. However I don't believe that is the main or only issue.
Its the Psyche that bigger is better.
Let me finish with saying DAMNIT this is AMERICA and I'm not going to say we all need small cars and small cars are God and Europe/Japan is right.
Hell no. I do wish people would really look at true needs/wants and do more research before just plucking down on a giant vehicle.
Oh and put down that Big Mac
07-03-09, 10:14 AM
#29
Lexus Champion
1sick,
I think US mentality is changing a bit in this regard. Huge SUVs are no longer cool and small cars are more socially accepted as potentially 'nice' and not just something you drive because you can't afford anything bigger.
Also when the all new Maxima came out a few months back I do remember several mags praising Nissan for bucking the trend and actually making their car smaller and weigh less. Of course almost everyone I knew thought the Maxima was far too big to retain its status as the sports car for the family man.
Though at this point the Maxima and Altima overlap a bit because of their similar size so I wonder if they plan to shrink the Altima or just differentiate them on other things like price and features?
I think US mentality is changing a bit in this regard. Huge SUVs are no longer cool and small cars are more socially accepted as potentially 'nice' and not just something you drive because you can't afford anything bigger.
Also when the all new Maxima came out a few months back I do remember several mags praising Nissan for bucking the trend and actually making their car smaller and weigh less. Of course almost everyone I knew thought the Maxima was far too big to retain its status as the sports car for the family man.
Though at this point the Maxima and Altima overlap a bit because of their similar size so I wonder if they plan to shrink the Altima or just differentiate them on other things like price and features?
07-03-09, 11:38 AM
#30
Lexus Fanatic
I agree, and current resale values support the shift in American preferences.