German quality rising vs Japanese pricing rising....is the value eroding?
#31
If the Germans can make a reliable, soft riding yet handles well, quiet car with a good quality interior, then Lexus will be in big trouble. So far they havent yet, but they are getting close.
#32
I don't see the German quality rising, because it's not really a priority...
Now having both a Lexus and a BMW, I can see how the German cars can have tons of small electrical annoyances, etc., while my Lexus (and all the other Japanese cars I've had in the past) is simply error-free. I like both, but for completely different reasons, which is why I think the type of customer that buys Japanese vs. German is totally different.
My Lexus is much cheaper, it's fast, it's simple, and somewhat comfortable.
My BMW is much more expensive, much more fun to drive, much more comfortable, feels much safer and solid, rarer, and much better looking in my opinion. At the end of the day, it's about a 10% better car for about 50% more money.
So, generally, my observation is that people who buy German might have more disposable income (or are at least willing to spend more on cars) and are less conservative buyers than those who buy Japanese. Japanese cars are for the masses, and they comprimise to appeal to as many people as possible. There's nothing wrong with either, but I think there are just different types of buyers out there.
But, now that the new E-class has a MUCH lower starting price than it did before, I think Mercedes might be taking the Lexus approach of selling more units and gaining market share... we'll see. It's now a basically very luxurious, good looking car with GS pricing.
Now having both a Lexus and a BMW, I can see how the German cars can have tons of small electrical annoyances, etc., while my Lexus (and all the other Japanese cars I've had in the past) is simply error-free. I like both, but for completely different reasons, which is why I think the type of customer that buys Japanese vs. German is totally different.
My Lexus is much cheaper, it's fast, it's simple, and somewhat comfortable.
My BMW is much more expensive, much more fun to drive, much more comfortable, feels much safer and solid, rarer, and much better looking in my opinion. At the end of the day, it's about a 10% better car for about 50% more money.
So, generally, my observation is that people who buy German might have more disposable income (or are at least willing to spend more on cars) and are less conservative buyers than those who buy Japanese. Japanese cars are for the masses, and they comprimise to appeal to as many people as possible. There's nothing wrong with either, but I think there are just different types of buyers out there.
But, now that the new E-class has a MUCH lower starting price than it did before, I think Mercedes might be taking the Lexus approach of selling more units and gaining market share... we'll see. It's now a basically very luxurious, good looking car with GS pricing.
#33
#34
Younger people, though, in general, are not where the money is. Older people have had many more years to save, and can generally afford more expensive vehicles. To ignore them, as a number of manufacturers have done lately, is, IMO, foolish marketing. Cadillac, Buick, and Lincoln, among others, are shortly going to find that out if they keep moving their vehicles away from the traditional big, plush, soft-riders that many older people prefer. The new 2010 Buick Lacrosse, for instance, may indeed appeal more to those under age 45-50, but it may alienate the older buyers, and the younger people (while there are exceptions) generally don't have as much money to spend.
#35
Younger people, though, in general, are not where the money is. Older people have had many more years to save, and can generally afford more expensive vehicles. To ignore them, as a number of manufacturers have done lately, is, IMO, foolish marketing. Cadillac, Buick, and Lincoln, among others, are shortly going to find that out if they keep moving their vehicles away from the traditional big, plush, soft-riders that many older people prefer. The new 2010 Buick Lacrosse, for instance, may indeed appeal more to those under age 45-50, but it may alienate the older buyers, and the younger people (while there are exceptions) generally don't have as much money to spend.
#36
Younger people, depending on what you call younger of course (under the age of retirement) is exactly where the money is. Toyota/Lexus is well aware and wants to exploit the opportunities. We are not talking about 20's and 30's, we are talking about people in their prime and peak earning years 40's and 50's, including people like many of the premium car buyers here on CHIT CHAT with 6 digit personal incomes. Included in these lucrative age groups are huge baby boomer populations that must be addressed of course.
Also, even when people buy used they're still buying into the brand, let's not forget that. Younger people buy tons of CPO cars and Infiniti Gs (especially) and 3 series coupes are in hot particularly high demand. You don't always have to pay a lot for excitement or passion...it can come at varying levels of income, new or used, old or young. If Lexus made a coupe version of the 3GS, no questions asked- I would be hunting one down on the used car market in 2-3 years. Same could be said for an IS coupe. Since there isn't one I am forced to either go for the sedan or look elsewhere.
#39
4) Looking at the 3 points above, I don't see this as Japanese vs. Germans or value vs quality/product debate, but rather an illustration of the divide that is becoming ever more apparent in the premium segment. Lexus fought long and hard to make it to the top and now that they're there, they no longer sell cars based on value. Lexus is the leader in hybrids and they have pioneered several other improvements and technologies in the last few years. Audi is making the leap over to join the others, but Volvo, Acura, Infiniti, Cadillac, and Lincoln will all be left to battle over the scraps, and often that is a battle that comes down to terms of "value".
I just don't understand this. Yes, Lexus = reliable, quietness, hybrids, German = balance, sophistication, innovation. I have no problem telling you right now I haven't seen this equation change. Some of Lexus's less than thrilling products aren't helping their cause, but if and when the Germans start at least getting in the same ballpark of Lexus reliability (even I am not drunk enough to say they are close yet), Toyota should be worried. True, a handful of diehard fanboys may go nuts, but the marketplace and all the buyers in it win when Lexus is forced to start injecting personality instead of electric-ness into their cars. The IS-F was a lovely start, may I add, but it's time to get serious if they have any hope of really competing with stalwarts like Audi AG, Daimler, or BMW on the global stage.
5) Still, looking at identically equipped competing models, Lexus does still come in a few thousand dollars below BMW or MB in most scenarios. LS 460L vs S550 or 750i falls deeply into Lexus favor in terms of price. GS is priced a few thousand below the E class and 5, and the IS is the same way. Also remember that Lexus has far larger economies of scale in terms of sharing parts and R&D costs, so they are truly able to offer their cars for less money (to an extent).
Lexus was at the top, and the Germans were more towards the bottom- Lexus had a lot to loose and Mercedes had a lot to gain. It just so happened that Lexus fell a few pegs when Mercedes/BMW went up a several. Looking at the grand sceheme of things, I think that BMW/Mercedes advanced more than Lexus fell, but that is partly because they were so far behind before
Last edited by FKL; 07-17-09 at 06:56 PM.
#41
#42
Audi had the first hybrid in 1989, remember. Audi is already a tier one premium luxury automaker, arguably above Lexus in regards to worldwide prestige, motor sports, and high-end cars. You seem to want to group them in some sort of lower class because their sales numbers in the US are below Lexus and the rest, but this doesn't make logical sense when you look at the constant innovation and industry trends that Audi sets, much less their worldwide sales figures.
Lexus is just starting to shake them free of Toyota, L-Finesse is new, Audi has a proven styling heritage going back decades. Again, I am not sure how Audi "has not yet joined the club". I've seen you and others engage in this more than once and just wanted to see why it is that Audi isn't "at the same level" of Lexus, let alone BMW, MB, etc? You honestly think that Audi should be grouped with Acura? Audi already 1) Sells far more cars than Lexus, 2) Has a time honored tier one heritage to back up the brand, 3) has products that consistently set the bar for quality, 4) Has S-Line, RS, the R8, V10s, blown V6s, dual clutch DSGs, W12s....etc. I mean, come on, are you going to wave the Prius's Hybrid Synergy Drive flag every time the Germans powertrain engineering is brought up?
I just don't understand this. Yes, Lexus = reliable, quietness, hybrids, German = balance, sophistication, innovation. I have no problem telling you right now I haven't seen this equation change. Some of Lexus's less than thrilling products aren't helping their cause, but if and when the Germans start at least getting in the same ballpark of Lexus reliability (even I am not drunk enough to say they are close yet), Toyota should be worried. True, a handful of diehard fanboys may go nuts, but the marketplace and all the buyers in it win when Lexus is forced to start injecting personality instead of electric-ness into their cars. The IS-F was a lovely start, may I add, but it's time to get serious if they have any hope of really competing with stalwarts like Audi AG, Daimler, or BMW on the global stage.
...And Audi shares those same large economies of scale, and their vehicles are priced well above a comparable Lexus.
Well, what was Lexus "at the top" of? This is a very broad way to put it all. Sure, they beat the three luxury makers from Germany in regards to cost of ownership and reliability, but as far as grossly important aspects such as powertrains, styling, and driving dynamics, the Toyota-derivatives that Lexus was labeling their own in the 90s and early 00s didn't deliver like a BMW or Audi. And I would have no problem arguing why products like the current IS and GS are just simply inferior to the competition from Europe in more than one way. Obviously, there is a tradeoff for the lower price here.
Also, I wouldn't be so quick to draw comparisons between late model Lexus cars and those from Audi. The 2GS was a vastly superior car to the comparable A6 through and through- better interior, better performer, more reliable and dependable, etc. The LS has always been a better car than the A8. While I already know you'll disagree, there is really little to back up the claim that either car is better than the competing Lexus model. Audi has just now come up with something to compete with the RX, ten years after it's debut.
Last edited by MPLexus301; 07-17-09 at 08:02 PM.
#43
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Posts: n/a
Rattles in IS/GS
ES 350 tranny flare
New LS has a couple of issues
Thank goodness nothing major like full blown engines, transmissions etc. Lexus acknowledged they let quality slide. They also experimented with new plastics that look better and are easier to style but they are harder to the touch.
If we look at quality surveys the last few years, Lexus while still doing very well, was not #1 the past few years. They recently have regained the #1 spot.
One example is when the GS was having issues, Lexus of Japan told dealers to buy back cars and ship them back to Japan so they could inspect them. Looking at people on the forum, it seems the newer the GS the less rattles it has.
#44
To make a long story short this is how things were
-German car priced higher
-Japense car priced lower
-Japanese car offering less, priced lower (Acura)
Today with the Germans entering so many new markets and seemingly offering aggresive pricing in some cases and with the Japanese brands raising prices, is the value/price eroding for Japanese brands? I've noticed in the past the price differences between the Germans and Japanese (Lexus mainly) was 8-10k. Now in many cases its 2k-5k.
-German car priced higher
-Japense car priced lower
-Japanese car offering less, priced lower (Acura)
Today with the Germans entering so many new markets and seemingly offering aggresive pricing in some cases and with the Japanese brands raising prices, is the value/price eroding for Japanese brands? I've noticed in the past the price differences between the Germans and Japanese (Lexus mainly) was 8-10k. Now in many cases its 2k-5k.
! Its 40k loaded for FWD, A V-6 with less power and a 5 speed. Where is the value?
Lexus cost cutting is intentional.....and profit motivated
#45
Sure...
Rattles in IS/GS
ES 350 tranny flare
New LS has a couple of issues
Thank goodness nothing major like full blown engines, transmissions etc. Lexus acknowledged they let quality slide. They also experimented with new plastics that look better and are easier to style but they are harder to the touch.
If we look at quality surveys the last few years, Lexus while still doing very well, was not #1 the past few years. They recently have regained the #1 spot.
One example is when the GS was having issues, Lexus of Japan told dealers to buy back cars and ship them back to Japan so they could inspect them. Looking at people on the forum, it seems the newer the GS the less rattles it has.
Rattles in IS/GS
ES 350 tranny flare
New LS has a couple of issues
Thank goodness nothing major like full blown engines, transmissions etc. Lexus acknowledged they let quality slide. They also experimented with new plastics that look better and are easier to style but they are harder to the touch.
If we look at quality surveys the last few years, Lexus while still doing very well, was not #1 the past few years. They recently have regained the #1 spot.
One example is when the GS was having issues, Lexus of Japan told dealers to buy back cars and ship them back to Japan so they could inspect them. Looking at people on the forum, it seems the newer the GS the less rattles it has.
that's not saying much.
99% of cars these days won't have their engines explode.
and with **** poor sales of the GS recently, it's no wonder there's no one talking about them on the forum; hardly anyone here has a 2009 GS.
the newer any car is, the fewer rattles it will have.
I haven't driven a loaner car with over 10000 miles on it recently. but i'd like to, just to see how badly it rattles. i drove one a couple years ago, and it sounded like the dash and pillars were gonna fall apart.
that's the main problem with lexus. The cabin isn't tight enough, and it really cheapens the whole product line.