mmarshall

So why, then, did they stiffen up the ES350's suspension/tires and cheapen its interior so much over that of the ES330? They also cheapened up the IS250/350 interior, but in a different way......they actually made it look MORE plush than the IS300's, while using cheaper materials underneath. They also took away the IS300's smoother-riding 55-series tire option.

The Mercedes S550 is extremely quiet and smooth-riding, and has a decent interior. It only lags in the reliability department, and that is slowly improving.

Fleainat

I don't see the German quality rising, because it's not really a priority...

Now having both a Lexus and a BMW, I can see how the German cars can have tons of small electrical annoyances, etc., while my Lexus (and all the other Japanese cars I've had in the past) is simply error-free. I like both, but for completely different reasons, which is why I think the type of customer that buys Japanese vs. German is totally different.

My Lexus is much cheaper, it's fast, it's simple, and somewhat comfortable.
My BMW is much more expensive, much more fun to drive, much more comfortable, feels much safer and solid, rarer, and much better looking in my opinion. At the end of the day, it's about a 10% better car for about 50% more money.

So, generally, my observation is that people who buy German might have more disposable income (or are at least willing to spend more on cars) and are less conservative buyers than those who buy Japanese. Japanese cars are for the masses, and they comprimise to appeal to as many people as possible. There's nothing wrong with either, but I think there are just different types of buyers out there.

But, now that the new E-class has a MUCH lower starting price than it did before, I think Mercedes might be taking the Lexus approach of selling more units and gaining market share... we'll see. It's now a basically very luxurious, good looking car with GS pricing.

The G Man

Sorry about that, but you did not say you comments only applied to the number 2 biggest auto market in the world only

mmarshall

Younger people, though, in general, are not where the money is. Older people have had many more years to save, and can generally afford more expensive vehicles. To ignore them, as a number of manufacturers have done lately, is, IMO, foolish marketing. Cadillac, Buick, and Lincoln, among others, are shortly going to find that out if they keep moving their vehicles away from the traditional big, plush, soft-riders that many older people prefer. The new 2010 Buick Lacrosse, for instance, may indeed appeal more to those under age 45-50, but it may alienate the older buyers, and the younger people (while there are exceptions) generally don't have as much money to spend.

IS-SV

Younger people, depending on what you call younger of course (under the age of retirement) is exactly where the money is. Toyota/Lexus is well aware and wants to exploit the opportunities. We are not talking about 20's and 30's, we are talking about people in their prime and peak earning years 40's and 50's, including people like many of the premium car buyers here on CHIT CHAT with 6 digit personal incomes. Included in these lucrative age groups are huge baby boomer populations that must be addressed of course.

MPLexus301

iTrader: (3)

I agree...and really it is even people in their late 20s and 30's- many people fresh out of grad school or med school are earning six digit incomes and want something sporty, fun, upscale, emotional, and non-practical. My best friend just graduated from UNC Chapel Hill, landed a job with Deloitte, and is now deciding if he should buy a 335i, C350, IS 350, or a used 911

Also, even when people buy used they're still buying into the brand, let's not forget that. Younger people buy tons of CPO cars and Infiniti Gs (especially) and 3 series coupes are in hot particularly high demand. You don't always have to pay a lot for excitement or passion...it can come at varying levels of income, new or used, old or young. If Lexus made a coupe version of the 3GS, no questions asked- I would be hunting one down on the used car market in 2-3 years. Same could be said for an IS coupe. Since there isn't one I am forced to either go for the sedan or look elsewhere.

dunnojack

yeah. screw the japanese and germans.

my next car is gonna be korean.

kia, that is.

kia forte. now that's value right there.

werewolf

The Forte looks like the Civic for 5k less.

FKL

Audi had the first hybrid in 1989, remember. Audi is already a tier one premium luxury automaker, arguably above Lexus in regards to worldwide prestige, motor sports, and high-end cars. You seem to want to group them in some sort of lower class because their sales numbers in the US are below Lexus and the rest, but this doesn't make logical sense when you look at the constant innovation and industry trends that Audi sets, much less their worldwide sales figures. Lexus is just starting to shake them free of Toyota, L-Finesse is new, Audi has a proven styling heritage going back decades. Again, I am not sure how Audi "has not yet joined the club". I've seen you and others engage in this more than once and just wanted to see why it is that Audi isn't "at the same level" of Lexus, let alone BMW, MB, etc? You honestly think that Audi should be grouped with Acura? Audi already 1) Sells far more cars than Lexus, 2) Has a time honored tier one heritage to back up the brand, 3) has products that consistently set the bar for quality, 4) Has S-Line, RS, the R8, V10s, blown V6s, dual clutch DSGs, W12s....etc. I mean, come on, are you going to wave the Prius's Hybrid Synergy Drive flag every time the Germans powertrain engineering is brought up?

I just don't understand this. Yes, Lexus = reliable, quietness, hybrids, German = balance, sophistication, innovation. I have no problem telling you right now I haven't seen this equation change. Some of Lexus's less than thrilling products aren't helping their cause, but if and when the Germans start at least getting in the same ballpark of Lexus reliability (even I am not drunk enough to say they are close yet), Toyota should be worried. True, a handful of diehard fanboys may go nuts, but the marketplace and all the buyers in it win when Lexus is forced to start injecting personality instead of electric-ness into their cars. The IS-F was a lovely start, may I add, but it's time to get serious if they have any hope of really competing with stalwarts like Audi AG, Daimler, or BMW on the global stage.

...And Audi shares those same large economies of scale, and their vehicles are priced well above a comparable Lexus.


Well, what was Lexus "at the top" of? This is a very broad way to put it all. Sure, they beat the three luxury makers from Germany in regards to cost of ownership and reliability, but as far as grossly important aspects such as powertrains, styling, and driving dynamics, the Toyota-derivatives that Lexus was labeling their own in the 90s and early 00s didn't deliver like a BMW or Audi. And I would have no problem arguing why products like the current IS and GS are just simply inferior to the competition from Europe in more than one way. Obviously, there is a tradeoff for the lower price here.

Dave600hL

You might want to think about not using the word "Jap" , I take offense to it.

pagemaster

I really would like to know where you think Lexus had issues?

Also, I would like to know how you feel they have been addressed? I don't think they are %100 addressed but they are getting closer.

MPLexus301

iTrader: (3)

I don't disagree with you, and in my personal opinion Audi is right up there with the best. In America, though, they still have a ways to go even considering the recent strides that they have made. Until the last generation A4, the brand was really an afterthought for most buyers. Since then, the A6, A5, A8, S and RS models, Q7, Q5, R8, and new A4 have all elevated the brand substantially in a relatively short time span. To me Audi is one of the top dogs...to most Americans they are just now showing up on the radar.

I don't disagree with you, but you're talking about international markets and I am talking about the United States. I have never tried to take anything away from Audi (I love the brand) but even you can't disagree that until the last few years Audi was the "Oh yeah..." moment for most car buyers, not their first thought. The sales numbers show this.



I agree and disagree. There is a market for high quality, ultra-reliable, high tech luxury cars and Lexus satisfies that quite well. They are also doing things differently in non-US markets with a heavy emphasis on hybrids. I think the company is hybrid-only in some overseas markets. They are trying to build a name and image by being uniquely Lexus, not just following Audi, Diamler, and BMW. They DO need to work on injecting more passion and excitement into the brand as a whole...that I certainly agree with.

True. My point was that Lexus, because of it's resources and ability to share parts and costs, can price their cars lower than BMW or Mercedes which have notoriously high labor costs and much lower profit margins. Audi, while they could, has chosen not to price their models considerably below the other two. So...what were you saying...?


They're at the top of the image/brand recognition game here in America, that is what I meant as I clarified above. Also, let's not understate the "importance" of Lexus powertrains- Audi has nothing to compare with the RX 450h, GS 450h, LS 600hL, while the IS-F and LS460 have some of the best engines in their classes. Audi also has it's share of remarkable powertrains, as do Mercedes and BMW. Your constant attempts at belittling the company and dragging them through the mud whenever possible is just getting so old.

Also, I wouldn't be so quick to draw comparisons between late model Lexus cars and those from Audi. The 2GS was a vastly superior car to the comparable A6 through and through- better interior, better performer, more reliable and dependable, etc. The LS has always been a better car than the A8. While I already know you'll disagree, there is really little to back up the claim that either car is better than the competing Lexus model. Audi has just now come up with something to compete with the RX, ten years after it's debut.

LexFather

Sure...
Rattles in IS/GS
ES 350 tranny flare
New LS has a couple of issues

Thank goodness nothing major like full blown engines, transmissions etc. Lexus acknowledged they let quality slide. They also experimented with new plastics that look better and are easier to style but they are harder to the touch.

If we look at quality surveys the last few years, Lexus while still doing very well, was not #1 the past few years. They recently have regained the #1 spot.

One example is when the GS was having issues, Lexus of Japan told dealers to buy back cars and ship them back to Japan so they could inspect them. Looking at people on the forum, it seems the newer the GS the less rattles it has.

pagemaster

Lexus/Toyota has seriously increased the level of features and content in their vehicles which has lead to quality cuts on things that the customer does not see or use as much. Much of this started in 2005 and still happens today. Lexus is forced to increase features but wants to maintain profits while trying to keep prices low.


I would rather have a 320hp, 6 speed, timing belted Lexus with very high quality materials than a 380hp, 8 speed, timing chained Lexus with good or pretty good (not high) quality materials. This is the case the last little while.

Lexus cost cutting is intentional.....and profit motivated

dunnojack

that's not saying much.

99% of cars these days won't have their engines explode.

and with **** poor sales of the GS recently, it's no wonder there's no one talking about them on the forum; hardly anyone here has a 2009 GS.
the newer any car is, the fewer rattles it will have.

I haven't driven a loaner car with over 10000 miles on it recently. but i'd like to, just to see how badly it rattles. i drove one a couple years ago, and it sounded like the dash and pillars were gonna fall apart.

that's the main problem with lexus. The cabin isn't tight enough, and it really cheapens the whole product line.