German quality rising vs Japanese pricing rising....is the value eroding?
07-18-09, 05:52 AM
#46
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that's not saying much.
99% of cars these days won't have their engines explode.
and with **** poor sales of the GS recently, it's no wonder there's no one talking about them on the forum; hardly anyone here has a 2009 GS.
the newer any car is, the fewer rattles it will have.
I haven't driven a loaner car with over 10000 miles on it recently. but i'd like to, just to see how badly it rattles. i drove one a couple years ago, and it sounded like the dash and pillars were gonna fall apart.
that's the main problem with lexus. The cabin isn't tight enough, and it really cheapens the whole product line.
99% of cars these days won't have their engines explode.
and with **** poor sales of the GS recently, it's no wonder there's no one talking about them on the forum; hardly anyone here has a 2009 GS.
the newer any car is, the fewer rattles it will have.
I haven't driven a loaner car with over 10000 miles on it recently. but i'd like to, just to see how badly it rattles. i drove one a couple years ago, and it sounded like the dash and pillars were gonna fall apart.
that's the main problem with lexus. The cabin isn't tight enough, and it really cheapens the whole product line.
I am what is called a "dash stroker" I hate cheap or awful interiors and I tend to notice small things about interiors that other people just overlook. That is where I will spend my time. Even the experts and reviewers today comment if its one thing about a Lexus, its their incredible interiors.
R&T commented on their long term GS 450h that after 50k miles, the interior looked brand new and they were blown away by it.
Read up on other brands as well. BMW dashes have parts falling off. Infiniti dashes actually have owners with CRACKS appearing (some dealers refuse to fix) etc etc.
07-18-09, 07:40 AM
#47
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Good thread... I definitely feel that the Lexus brand is becoming "tired" and that the German's (MB in particular) have learnt a hard lesson. It was bought home to me just last week when at the 45,000 mile service of our RX330 Lexus said they would charge almost $1,000 to replace a simple leaky hose in the steering mechanism. (Seriously) Now the car is just out of warranty and they can charge what they want to, but for something so fundamental to the safety of the vehicle and not a normal wear and tear item... well I recall an older Lexus that would do anything to keep its bullet proof reputation and would not start charging extortionate pricing to customers at a still low mileage and just out of warranty.
That older Lexus seems to be fading at least from my local dealer experience. After buying 1 LS and 2 RX's it is highly unlikely I will buy another Lexus again. Frankly the line up from the German manufacturers is now more interesting and as they appear to be getting their act together on the quality and service front I do not see much reason to stay with Lexus.
Chris
That older Lexus seems to be fading at least from my local dealer experience. After buying 1 LS and 2 RX's it is highly unlikely I will buy another Lexus again. Frankly the line up from the German manufacturers is now more interesting and as they appear to be getting their act together on the quality and service front I do not see much reason to stay with Lexus.
Chris
Lexus while is doing cool things with hybrids, needs to attack the sport market.
lexus knows where their money makers are, it is in the soft riding, quiet, quality interior cars. They are not going venture far into enemy territories such as the AMG, R8 or M3. Thats why they still dont have a flagship sports car. If the Germans can make a reliable, soft riding yet handles well, quiet car with a good quality interior, then Lexus will be in big trouble. So far they havent yet, but they are getting close. BMW, MB and Audi now have comfortable suspension, especially with the optional active suspension, reliability is climbing every year. The German sedans are just as quiet as the Lexus and Audi interior is higher quality than the Lexus. The gap is closing and its not a good thing for Lexus.
For all the internet fanboism, most German cars are like Lexus....they are nice riding, comfy cars. For every sport kit/model sold there are 1000 non sport models sold. This is ESPECIALLY true for Audi and Benz. Stock, they are not some canyon carvers people WANT OTHERS TO BELIEVE. They are nice, well built, luxury vehicles. Even stock BMWs are comfy but they still are sportier than the others.
You also forgot about the IS-F and the LF-A which debuts this year.
07-18-09, 01:40 PM
#48
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True. My point was that Lexus, because of it's resources and ability to share
The point is that cars like the A4 and IS have a price difference for a reason, and it's not the imaginary "German arrogance".
Again, here we go again, you are throwing out the Hybrid Synergy Drive as some grand experiment that nobody else can match when in reality Audi was the first with your coveted Hybrid drive system. Why hasn't Lexus standardized direct injection across their lineup if their powertrains are so far and above Audi's? Where are the dual-clutch automated manuals that the entire industry is moving towards? Please, if you want to write off reality and things that you don't agree with by saying I'm throwing mud, at least back yourself up with substantiative reasoning beyond waving the old hybrid flag every time the notion that, perhaps, yes, a the Germans do engage in more advanced powertrain engineering (supercharging, turbo charging, twin charging, diesel hybrid, hybrid, hydrogen, FSI, DSG, etc, etc.) than Lexus does. Why this is so hard to believe is beyond me. What I really would love to know is where this debate is going to start going as soon as zee Germans start releasing their own "hybrid" models (perhaps TDI/hybrid).
You are right, I don't believe any of this. How's this? The A6 and A8 have always been better cars than the GS and LS. What now? This isn't zero-sum, and unlike you, I have no problem saying the GS and LS are fine cars, but I just happen to believe the A6 and A8 you mention have always been styled far better (timeless, classy lines), they have always had far better interiors (C5 A6 and D3 A8 have been hailed as the best interiors in their class by the world press, reality backs this up), far better road feel, more features (direct injection, DSG, 2.7tt, quattro), sport-specific trims (S-line, S, RS). Still, I'm wondering if you've ever sat in the art-for-an-interior A8 if you honestly believe the LS is far and above. Get real, or at least stick to talking about one thing at a time. WTF does a Lexus RX have to do with anything here? Little to back up the claim? Uhh, dream on?
parts and costs, can price their cars lower than BMW or Mercedes which have notoriously high labor costs and much lower profit margins. Audi, while they could, has chosen not to price their models considerably below the other two. So...what were you saying...?
They're at the top of the image/brand recognition game here in America, that is what I meant as I clarified above. Also, let's not understate the "importance" of Lexus powertrains- Audi has nothing to compare with the RX 450h, GS 450h, LS 600hL, while the IS-F and LS460 have some of the best engines in their classes. Audi also has it's share of remarkable powertrains, as do Mercedes and BMW. Your constant attempts at belittling the company and dragging them through the mud whenever possible is just getting so old.
Also, I wouldn't be so quick to draw comparisons between late model Lexus cars and those from Audi. The 2GS was a vastly superior car to the comparable A6 through and through- better interior, better performer, more reliable and dependable, etc. The LS has always been a better car than the A8. While I already know you'll disagree, there is really little to back up the claim that either car is better than the competing Lexus model. Audi has just now come up with something to compete with the RX, ten years after it's debut.
Last edited by FKL; 07-18-09 at 01:49 PM.
07-18-09, 01:48 PM
#49
Lexus Fanatic
lexus is a "tired" brand because their whole lineup is stale.
the SC is like 30 years old.
The GX is like 15 years old.
no one really buys the LX
and the RX is just a pokemon-shaped people mover.
and the ES is for old people who can't afford the LS.
I understand why it's stale.
the SC is like 30 years old.
The GX is like 15 years old.
no one really buys the LX
and the RX is just a pokemon-shaped people mover.
and the ES is for old people who can't afford the LS.
I understand why it's stale.
07-18-09, 01:52 PM
#50
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^honestly this is getting to the point of no excuses anymore when you have worldwide #1 Toyota and their huge cash reserves to back you up. Daimler is relatively weak in their long term outlook, yet they are consistantly able to build vehicles that are world class and set benchmarks. The capability is certainly there, but Toyoya isn't doing near enough for Lexus to be a significant player outside of N. America.
07-18-09, 02:24 PM
#51
Lexus Fanatic
^honestly this is getting to the point of no excuses anymore when you have worldwide #1 Toyota and their huge cash reserves to back you up. Daimler is relatively weak in their long term outlook, yet they are consistantly able to build vehicles that are world class and set benchmarks. The capability is certainly there, but Toyoya isn't doing near enough for Lexus to be a significant player outside of N. America.
in 2012, i will look back and research all the problems in the 2008 C class. That will give me a good idea how reliable MB is as a whole.
the C was the crappiest benz ever made during the early 2000s.
07-18-09, 10:08 PM
#52
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lexus is a "tired" brand because their whole lineup is stale.
the SC is like 30 years old.
The GX is like 15 years old.
no one really buys the LX
and the RX is just a pokemon-shaped people mover.
and the ES is for old people who can't afford the LS.
I understand why it's stale
.
the SC is like 30 years old.
The GX is like 15 years old.
no one really buys the LX
and the RX is just a pokemon-shaped people mover.
and the ES is for old people who can't afford the LS.
I understand why it's stale
.
07-19-09, 04:49 PM
#54
Please, if you want to write off reality and things that you don't agree with by saying I'm throwing mud, at least back yourself up with substantiative reasoning beyond waving the old hybrid flag every time the notion that, perhaps, yes, a the Germans do engage in more advanced powertrain engineering (supercharging, turbo charging, twin charging, diesel hybrid, hybrid, hydrogen, FSI, DSG, etc, etc.)
This isn't zero-sum, and unlike you, I have no problem saying the GS and LS are fine cars, but I just happen to believe the A6 and A8 you mention have always been styled far better (timeless, classy lines), they have always had far better interiors (C5 A6 and D3 A8 have been hailed as the best interiors in their class by the world press, reality backs this up), far better road feel, more features (direct injection, DSG, 2.7tt, quattro), sport-specific trims (S-line, S, RS). Still, I'm wondering if you've ever sat in the art-for-an-interior A8 if you honestly believe the LS is far and above. Get real, or at least stick to talking about one thing at a time. WTF does a Lexus RX have to do with anything here? Little to back up the claim? Uhh, dream on?
However the past generations of Audis were boring and dull, their interiors were boring, cold and dull, their motors were subpar, their suspension and driving dynamics were no sportier than Lexus. Not to mention lack of reliability and lack of logic in assembly, which made repairing them a miserable experience.
I personally believe that 2GS, 2SC, and 3LS to be the best cars ever built. Right now the soon to be discontinued SC is the last Lexus model that is built to Lexus standards that I came to appreciate. The rest of Lexus lineup, with the exception of LS460, is underwhelming, if not junk. So, to address the topic, I didnt buy Lexus because they were better value compared to germans, but because they built better cars. Nowadays things are the other way, and the Germans are the ones building better cars.
07-19-09, 07:35 PM
#55
Lexus Fanatic
IRight now the soon to be discontinued SC is the last Lexus model that is built to Lexus standards that I came to appreciate. The rest of Lexus lineup, with the exception of LS460, is underwhelming, if not junk. So, to address the topic, I didnt buy Lexus because they were better value compared to germans, but because they built better cars. Nowadays things are the other way, and the Germans are the ones building better cars.
07-19-09, 07:43 PM
#56
Check out the new 2010 RX350 and 450H. They may not be sufficiently "sporting" enough vehicles for your tastes, but, quality-wise, Lexus, IMO, did a much better job with the new RX than it did a the latest versions of the ES and IS. The new RX reminds me of what the old Lexus quality was like years ago.
07-21-09, 02:05 AM
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I think Lexus did a very good job with the new RX. I don't think it is better than the Lexus interior from years ago but it is not worse. I had the chance to sit in the interior of the RX today and thought of your comments, the dash is good but it is the door panels and centre console where the RX seems to be a week. Not in materials but in build quality.
07-21-09, 02:09 AM
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, it's no wonder there's no one talking about them on the forum; hardly anyone here has a 2009 GS.
the newer any car is, the fewer rattles it will have.
the newer any car is, the fewer rattles it will have.
The cabin isn't tight enough, and it really cheapens the whole product line.
07-21-09, 02:12 AM
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The rest of Lexus lineup, with the exception of LS460, is underwhelming, if not junk. .
07-21-09, 08:59 AM
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I think Lexus did a very good job with the new RX. I don't think it is better than the Lexus interior from years ago but it is not worse. I had the chance to sit in the interior of the RX today and thought of your comments, the dash is good but it is the door panels and centre console where the RX seems to be a week. Not in materials but in build quality.