The G Man

This is why the upcoming GS-F will have a lot more meaning to Lexus than just profits and sales numbers. The GS-F will be Lexus's flagship sport sedan, it needs to come close to the lights of the M5s, E63 and RS6. The GS-F will be Lexus' application to the big boys clubs, you can say this car may make or break Lexus as far as breaking into the luxury sport high performance market world wide.

IS-SV

Agreed, premium product lines need to include hi-perf versions of the cars even if it's not the volume seller.

LexFather

I agree that Lexus needs to continue to expand its lineup. Thanksfully they have come a long way since just two cars in 1989. LExus is a cautious company and hopefully the GS-F will come.

Seems a LS F-sport will come first and thats a good idea considering how many AMG KIT S550s are sold.

FKL

So I see, give no credit to the one who actually tried AND SUCEEDED in a working prototype from the start, but give all the credit to....oh, the brands you are partial to. Nice.



If you are crazy enough to take a CVT over a DSG, I feel sorry for you. Please get your facts straight if you want to act like an expert. The VW Group is transitioning all of their automatics to dual-clutch units over the next 5-7 years. Ford has already signaled that they are heading down the same path, as have the other German manufactures.


When you look at all cars currently on the market today, the European manufactures are undoubtedly more adept to supercharging, turbocharging (and even twin charging) their engines than the Japanese or Americans are. And no, sorry, the Japanese aren't to be credited with Variable valve timing, Alfa is. Again, there are certain things called perceptions, and some called facts; Honda wasn't the first.


I'd suggest getting off the your fantasy internet driving chair and going to sit/drive in a C5 Audi A6. All of your "factual assertions" about the build quality and interior are just delusional, somehow justified by high cost of ownership. You make no sense, trying to purport obnoxious and bloated generalizations ("none left on the road", "collecting rust") because of high cost of ownership. Unfortunately for you, there are not many people who are brain-dead enough to buy into these types of conscending and insulting talking points.


I am seriously wondering if you just woke up from some sort of coma. Please go drive an B5 Audi A4 or C5 A6 before spouting off internet fantasy. You have close to zero credibility on any matters in my eyes after you tried to justify your blind hatred for German manufactures because of "WWII" (sad, pathetic rambling), but this is just ridiculous. Have you ever driven the Bi-Turbo 2.7tt S4? Have you ever felt the interior beyond your little Google images searches? I don't even have the time to tell you why you are wrong and deluded in every aspect but reliability, an aspect I have never tried to defend. But everything else you said is just another painful experience to read, filled with your wholly-unsubstantiated "facts".

mmarshall

I have driven excellent versions of both. I fully agree with you that the DSG (S-Tronic in Audispeak) is a superb transmission. But the newer CVTs from Nissan and Subaru are also excellent. At the local preview, I drove the new 2010 Subaru Legacy CVT, with its 6 gear "ranges" and paddle shifts, and, like the DSG, it was superb. It made the formerly rather sluggish non-turbo AWD 2.5L H-4 run essentially like the 3.0L H-6.


Why do you say this? As I speak, the dual-clutch DSG is becoming harder and harder to find in American-spec VWs and Audis, especially Audis, who are phasing out of more and more of their U.S.-market DSGs in favor of the Tiptronic, a more conventional, torque-converter automatic. I asked the Audi people about this, and they say that they are still keeping the DSG/S-Tronic in Europe, but phasing it out in America. They are rather mum on the reasons why, but it appears to be related to the fact that the DSG is complex and expensive to produce, service, and repair.

I don't always agree wth you, but you are dead on about the excellence of the 2.0T engine and the DSG. If we lose the DSG here in America, it will be, IMO, a real shame.

LexFather

I don't know where this Audi and Benz's are fun to drive stuff came from. They drive like a Lexus. Many times LESS exciting with the same odd steering. Hell if you don't try for yourself, read any review.

This Automatic German means AUtomatic sporty is just not true. They can be very very bland/boring and quite frankly good at it.

Not every car is a AMG or RS or M for goodness sakes..

Och

iTrader: (3)

Thanks for your hate filled post. Exactly what I expected.

FKL

If you want to equate reality to hate, that is your business.

LexFather

Okay FKL, Och, please no more responses to one another please in this thread. I think both of you will just continue to disagree here.

Thanks

mmarshall

Audi brake pedals usually have a firmer feel and more positive response than the average Lexus product, but I agree that both they and M-Bs lack the telepathic BMW steering and superb chassis engineering. Recent M-B's, though, have gotten much better in the ride-handling balance.

The VW/Audi DSG gearbox, though, (where it can still be found) is sheer driving joy, especially with the 2.0T engine. It's a shame that we may be on the road to losing it in the American market (see my response to FKL above). If it were not for the rather poor electronics reliability of these cars, I might (?) be driving an AWD version instead of a Subaru.

FKL

^mmmarshall, I believe that VW and Audi want to transition in the newer generation 6/7 speed DSG gearboxes for the N. American market before they start really start making a serious onslaught with DSG here. The current units, as you mentioned, are expensive to manufacture and repair. The new "NMS" (new midsized sedan), slated for 2011, as you may recall, will come standard with a DSG gearbox. It's important to note that DSG, in it's current form, is still a little more harsh in operation than the current Aisin 6speed units they are using. It shifts quick, but you can feel the shifts, and some have reported inconsistant off the line clutch engagement.

I agree with you that CVTs are getting better and better, but still, I would much rather have the Audi A4 FWD for example paired with a 6-Speed tiptronic or S-Tronic versus the CVT they use. It is just not my cup of tea. Then you have the CVTs in cars like the Rouge, which are just extremely rubbery and sling-shotty-feeling as I am sure you have experienced.

mmarshall

Not in the ones I've driven. The DSG's I've sampled were as seamless as a Lexus LS automatic....especially the ones several years ago. They not only had the smoothness and convienence of a good automatic but the efficiency and power-delivery of a manual. The newer ones have become slightly firmer-shifting, but still much better than, say, the ill-fated BMW SMT's.

Like I told Mike above (1SICKLEX), I might be driving one myself if the VW/Audi electronics were a little more reliable, and a number of Audis were not stuck with that (IMO) miserable MMI.

The G Man

The 08 A4 I drove had very good steering feedback, not as good as the 335 but much better than the MB C-Class.
The electronics in the newer German cars have gotten much more reliable, I would not rate them poor anymore, maybe average reliability.

CDNROCKIES

[QUOTE=Och;4691835]I will be sure to check the RX out, but just from the photos I hate the door panels and I had the chance to try out their mouse controller in the HS and its god awful, way worse than even i-drive.[/QUOTE]

This statement is ridiculous. The new Remote Touch is by far the best driver interface available on the market today. It is leaps and bounds ahead of Idrive (yes, even the new gen), Command, and the Audi version....and yes, I've had my hands on all of them recently.

+1

The new RX is the best redesign that Lexus has come up with in some time. Not only is the interior a serious step up, but the driving characteristics are greatly improved as well. Overall, a fantastic vehicle that is head and shoulders above the cute utes in every category and a good value when compared to the larger, German SUV's.

Bingo! Companies must push the envelope if they are going to separate themselves and maintain their status as a Tier 1 brand.

+1 again

While I admittedly do love how our ML handles, it clearly does not have the "sportiness" of an X5 and is very comfortable.

LexFather

[QUOTE=CDNROCKIES;4699133]Thank you for the honesty.