German quality rising vs Japanese pricing rising....is the value eroding?
#61
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This is why the upcoming GS-F will have a lot more meaning to Lexus than just profits and sales numbers. The GS-F will be Lexus's flagship sport sedan, it needs to come close to the lights of the M5s, E63 and RS6. The GS-F will be Lexus' application to the big boys clubs, you can say this car may make or break Lexus as far as breaking into the luxury sport high performance market world wide.
Last edited by The G Man; 07-21-09 at 01:02 PM.
#63
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This is why the upcoming GS-F will have a lot more meaning to Lexus than just profits and sales numbers. The GS-F will be Lexus's flagship sport sedan, it needs to come close to the lights of the M5s, E63 and RS6. The GS-F will be Lexus' application to the big boys clubs, you can say this car may make or break Lexus as far as breaking into the luxury sport high performance market world wide.
Seems a LS F-sport will come first and thats a good idea considering how many AMG KIT S550s are sold.
#64
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LMFAO. You know there were semi-working telephones before Bell invented a working one. There were semi-working light bulbs before Edison made one that worked. Just as such, Audi's "ambitious but rubbish" attempt doesn't count. Lexus/Toyota are the ones who got the Hybrid tech to work, and nobody gives a damn about Audis failed effort.
Uh, no. Manuals, automated manuals, dual clutch manuals, and regular automatics have 10 years at most before they become obsolete. The industry is moving towards CVTs, and Lexus CVTs are the most advanced and durable in the industry. The one in the LS460 hadles 380lb/tq from the gasoline engine, and possibly more if the electric motors send their torque through it.
LMFAO. Yes, because the Japanese never super charged, turbo charged, twin charged, dont have diesels, arent the ones credited for variable valve timing, fuel efficiency, hybrids, low emissions, all while the Germans are selling tons of hybrids, diesel hybrids, hydrogen powered cars, etc, right?
LMFAO, the A6 and A8 until the current generation have been miserable, unreliable, poorly built trash with awful interiors. There are barely any of them left running on the roads, as they are probably collecting rust and dust at junk yards. I see way more 1g LS, 1g SC, 1g GS on the roads than previous gen A6 or A8. That just speaks tons of reliability and desireability. And no, 1SC and 1GS were not volume sellers.
And I have no problem admitting that the current A4 and A6 are far better styled and far better built than the current IS and GS. The LS however is still superior to the A8, but A8 is indeed designed better and classier. Lexus has dropped the ball, and Audi has elevated their game.
However the past generations of Audis were boring and dull, their interiors were boring, cold and dull, their motors were subpar, their suspension and driving dynamics were no sportier than Lexus. Not to mention lack of reliability and lack of logic in assembly, which made repairing them a miserable experience.
However the past generations of Audis were boring and dull, their interiors were boring, cold and dull, their motors were subpar, their suspension and driving dynamics were no sportier than Lexus. Not to mention lack of reliability and lack of logic in assembly, which made repairing them a miserable experience.
#65
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If you are crazy enough to take a CVT over a DSG, I feel sorry for you.
The VW Group is transitioning all of their automatics to dual-clutch units over the next 5-7 years.
![Uhh...](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/1387914497.gif)
I don't always agree wth you, but you are dead on about the excellence of the 2.0T engine and the DSG. If we lose the DSG here in America, it will be, IMO, a real shame.
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Last edited by mmarshall; 07-21-09 at 09:39 PM.
#66
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I don't know where this Audi and Benz's are fun to drive stuff came from. They drive like a Lexus. Many times LESS exciting with the same odd steering. Hell if you don't try for yourself, read any review.
This Automatic German means AUtomatic sporty is just not true. They can be very very bland/boring and quite frankly good at it.
Not every car is a AMG or RS or M for goodness sakes..
This Automatic German means AUtomatic sporty is just not true. They can be very very bland/boring and quite frankly good at it.
Not every car is a AMG or RS or M for goodness sakes..
Last edited by LexFather; 03-11-10 at 08:24 AM.
#67
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So I see, give no credit to the one who actually tried AND SUCEEDED in a working prototype from the start, but give all the credit to....oh, the brands you are partial to. Nice.
If you are crazy enough to take a CVT over a DSG, I feel sorry for you. Please get your facts straight if you want to act like an expert. The VW Group is transitioning all of their automatics to dual-clutch units over the next 5-7 years. Ford has already signaled that they are heading down the same path, as have the other German manufactures.
When you look at all cars currently on the market today, the European manufactures are undoubtedly more adept to supercharging, turbocharging (and even twin charging) their engines than the Japanese or Americans are. And no, sorry, the Japanese aren't to be credited with Variable valve timing, Alfa is. Again, there are certain things called perceptions, and some called facts; Honda wasn't the first.
I'd suggest getting off the your fantasy internet driving chair and going to sit/drive in a C5 Audi A6. All of your "factual assertions" about the build quality and interior are just delusional, somehow justified by high cost of ownership. You make no sense, trying to purport obnoxious and bloated generalizations ("none left on the road", "collecting rust") because of high cost of ownership. Unfortunately for you, there are not many people who are brain-dead enough to buy into these types of conscending and insulting talking points.
I am seriously wondering if you just woke up from some sort of coma. Please go drive an B5 Audi A4 or C5 A6 before spouting off internet fantasy. You have close to zero credibility on any matters in my eyes after you tried to justify your blind hatred for German manufactures because of "WWII" (sad, pathetic rambling), but this is just ridiculous. Have you ever driven the Bi-Turbo 2.7tt S4? Have you ever felt the interior beyond your little Google images searches? I don't even have the time to tell you why you are wrong and deluded in every aspect but reliability, an aspect I have never tried to defend. But everything else you said is just another painful experience to read, filled with your wholly-unsubstantiated "facts".
If you are crazy enough to take a CVT over a DSG, I feel sorry for you. Please get your facts straight if you want to act like an expert. The VW Group is transitioning all of their automatics to dual-clutch units over the next 5-7 years. Ford has already signaled that they are heading down the same path, as have the other German manufactures.
When you look at all cars currently on the market today, the European manufactures are undoubtedly more adept to supercharging, turbocharging (and even twin charging) their engines than the Japanese or Americans are. And no, sorry, the Japanese aren't to be credited with Variable valve timing, Alfa is. Again, there are certain things called perceptions, and some called facts; Honda wasn't the first.
I'd suggest getting off the your fantasy internet driving chair and going to sit/drive in a C5 Audi A6. All of your "factual assertions" about the build quality and interior are just delusional, somehow justified by high cost of ownership. You make no sense, trying to purport obnoxious and bloated generalizations ("none left on the road", "collecting rust") because of high cost of ownership. Unfortunately for you, there are not many people who are brain-dead enough to buy into these types of conscending and insulting talking points.
I am seriously wondering if you just woke up from some sort of coma. Please go drive an B5 Audi A4 or C5 A6 before spouting off internet fantasy. You have close to zero credibility on any matters in my eyes after you tried to justify your blind hatred for German manufactures because of "WWII" (sad, pathetic rambling), but this is just ridiculous. Have you ever driven the Bi-Turbo 2.7tt S4? Have you ever felt the interior beyond your little Google images searches? I don't even have the time to tell you why you are wrong and deluded in every aspect but reliability, an aspect I have never tried to defend. But everything else you said is just another painful experience to read, filled with your wholly-unsubstantiated "facts".
#70
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Audi brake pedals usually have a firmer feel and more positive response than the average Lexus product, but I agree that both they and M-Bs lack the telepathic BMW steering and superb chassis engineering. Recent M-B's, though, have gotten much better in the ride-handling balance.
The VW/Audi DSG gearbox, though, (where it can still be found) is sheer driving joy, especially with the 2.0T engine. It's a shame that we may be on the road to losing it in the American market (see my response to FKL above). If it were not for the rather poor electronics reliability of these cars, I might (?) be driving an AWD version instead of a Subaru.
Last edited by mmarshall; 07-21-09 at 09:22 PM.
#71
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^mmmarshall, I believe that VW and Audi want to transition in the newer generation 6/7 speed DSG gearboxes for the N. American market before they start really start making a serious onslaught with DSG here. The current units, as you mentioned, are expensive to manufacture and repair. The new "NMS" (new midsized sedan), slated for 2011, as you may recall, will come standard with a DSG gearbox. It's important to note that DSG, in it's current form, is still a little more harsh in operation than the current Aisin 6speed units they are using. It shifts quick, but you can feel the shifts, and some have reported inconsistant off the line clutch engagement.
I agree with you that CVTs are getting better and better, but still, I would much rather have the Audi A4 FWD for example paired with a 6-Speed tiptronic or S-Tronic versus the CVT they use. It is just not my cup of tea. Then you have the CVTs in cars like the Rouge, which are just extremely rubbery and sling-shotty-feeling as I am sure you have experienced.
I agree with you that CVTs are getting better and better, but still, I would much rather have the Audi A4 FWD for example paired with a 6-Speed tiptronic or S-Tronic versus the CVT they use. It is just not my cup of tea. Then you have the CVTs in cars like the Rouge, which are just extremely rubbery and sling-shotty-feeling as I am sure you have experienced.
Last edited by FKL; 07-21-09 at 09:34 PM.
#72
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Like I told Mike above (1SICKLEX), I might be driving one myself if the VW/Audi electronics were a little more reliable, and a number of Audis were not stuck with that (IMO) miserable MMI.
Last edited by mmarshall; 07-21-09 at 09:49 PM.
#73
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but I agree that both they and M-Bs lack the telepathic BMW steering and superb chassis engineering. Recent M-B's, though, have gotten much better in the ride-handling balance.
The VW/Audi DSG gearbox, though, (where it can still be found) is sheer driving joy, especially with the 2.0T engine. It's a shame that we may be on the road to losing it in the American market (see my response to FKL above). If it were not for the rather poor electronics reliability of these cars, I might (?) be driving an AWD version instead of a Subaru.
The VW/Audi DSG gearbox, though, (where it can still be found) is sheer driving joy, especially with the 2.0T engine. It's a shame that we may be on the road to losing it in the American market (see my response to FKL above). If it were not for the rather poor electronics reliability of these cars, I might (?) be driving an AWD version instead of a Subaru.
The electronics in the newer German cars have gotten much more reliable, I would not rate them poor anymore, maybe average reliability.
#74
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[QUOTE=Och;4691835]I will be sure to check the RX out, but just from the photos I hate the door panels and I had the chance to try out their mouse controller in the HS and its god awful, way worse than even i-drive.[/QUOTE]
This statement is ridiculous. The new Remote Touch is by far the best driver interface available on the market today. It is leaps and bounds ahead of Idrive (yes, even the new gen), Command, and the Audi version....and yes, I've had my hands on all of them recently.
+1![Thumb Up](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif)
The new RX is the best redesign that Lexus has come up with in some time. Not only is the interior a serious step up, but the driving characteristics are greatly improved as well. Overall, a fantastic vehicle that is head and shoulders above the cute utes in every category and a good value when compared to the larger, German SUV's.
Bingo! Companies must push the envelope if they are going to separate themselves and maintain their status as a Tier 1 brand.
+1 again![Thumb Up](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif)
While I admittedly do love how our ML handles, it clearly does not have the "sportiness" of an X5 and is very comfortable.
This statement is ridiculous. The new Remote Touch is by far the best driver interface available on the market today. It is leaps and bounds ahead of Idrive (yes, even the new gen), Command, and the Audi version....and yes, I've had my hands on all of them recently.
![Thumb Up](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif)
The new RX is the best redesign that Lexus has come up with in some time. Not only is the interior a serious step up, but the driving characteristics are greatly improved as well. Overall, a fantastic vehicle that is head and shoulders above the cute utes in every category and a good value when compared to the larger, German SUV's.
I don't know where this Audi and Benz's are fun to drive stuff came from. They drive like a Lexus. Many times LESS exciting with the same odd steering. Hell if you don't try for yourself, read any review.
This Automatic German means AUtomatic sporty is just not true. They can be very very bland/boring and quite frankly good at it.
Not every car is a AMG or RS or M for goodness sakes..
This Automatic German means AUtomatic sporty is just not true. They can be very very bland/boring and quite frankly good at it.
Not every car is a AMG or RS or M for goodness sakes..
![Thumb Up](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif)
While I admittedly do love how our ML handles, it clearly does not have the "sportiness" of an X5 and is very comfortable.
#75
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[QUOTE=CDNROCKIES;4699133]
Thank you for the honesty. ![Thumb Up](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif)
![Thumb Up](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif)
I will be sure to check the RX out, but just from the photos I hate the door panels and I had the chance to try out their mouse controller in the HS and its god awful, way worse than even i-drive.[/QUOTE]
This statement is ridiculous. The new Remote Touch is by far the best driver interface available on the market today. It is leaps and bounds ahead of Idrive (yes, even the new gen), Command, and the Audi version....and yes, I've had my hands on all of them recently.
+1![Thumb Up](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif)
The new RX is the best redesign that Lexus has come up with in some time. Not only is the interior a serious step up, but the driving characteristics are greatly improved as well. Overall, a fantastic vehicle that is head and shoulders above the cute utes in every category and a good value when compared to the larger, German SUV's.
Bingo! Companies must push the envelope if they are going to separate themselves and maintain their status as a Tier 1 brand.
+1 again![Thumb Up](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif)
While I admittedly do love how our ML handles, it clearly does not have the "sportiness" of an X5 and is very comfortable.
This statement is ridiculous. The new Remote Touch is by far the best driver interface available on the market today. It is leaps and bounds ahead of Idrive (yes, even the new gen), Command, and the Audi version....and yes, I've had my hands on all of them recently.
+1
![Thumb Up](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif)
The new RX is the best redesign that Lexus has come up with in some time. Not only is the interior a serious step up, but the driving characteristics are greatly improved as well. Overall, a fantastic vehicle that is head and shoulders above the cute utes in every category and a good value when compared to the larger, German SUV's.
Bingo! Companies must push the envelope if they are going to separate themselves and maintain their status as a Tier 1 brand.
+1 again
![Thumb Up](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif)
While I admittedly do love how our ML handles, it clearly does not have the "sportiness" of an X5 and is very comfortable.
![Thumb Up](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif)
![Thumb Up](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif)
![Thumb Up](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif)