BMW pulling out of F1 at end of season
07-31-09, 07:41 AM
#31
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but on the other hand F1 is no longer what it was which was a manufacturer showcase. A place where all involved Auto companies can showcase their engineering talents of leading edge technologies with engines / electronic aids / active suspensions / carbon brakes / chassis etc.. Especially back in a time where you had V6's vs. Turbo inline 4's, V12's and so on and with the peak of the V10 era. Now the development of the current V8's are frozen.
But thats where it's tuff with the current Financial stranglehold and spending limits.
But thats where it's tuff with the current Financial stranglehold and spending limits.
).This year was the year where significant changes were introduced. All new aero package, KERS, longer lasting engines (8 per year), movable front wings, etc..
Sounds like a prime opportunity to for BMW to show some of that engineering talent. What have they accomplished?
1) Longer lasting engines should have been easy since they were frozen right? BMW has blown up more engines for Kubica than anyone else. They are on track to fall afoul of this rule whereas all other manufacturers at this point are clear.
2) KERS was such a massive fail for them. Such an interesting engineering exercise to add power to the drivetrain. They champion it aggressively being the only ones that held out for introducing it to the grid and then produce a system/car poor enough to be taken off after just a handful of races.
Ferrari who thought they were behind with their system actually end up liking it and Mercedes is considered to have the best implementation (tightly packaged, very low cooling, light). KERS is gone for next year. Thanks BMW for costing everyone the cash. I'm sure Flavio has some choice words for you.3) With an all new aero rules package the engineers were free to design a "ground up" car. An opportunity we haven't seen in ages in F1. BMW was slow out of the gate (if you ignore tire dominated Melbourne). Their car doesn't produce enough downforce and mechanical grip. Now all the companies are struggling with making the tires work but perhaps BMW could show us their mettle by bringing updates to the cars. Nope.. that didn't happen. The BMWs have slowly fallen to the back of the grid as they struggle to understand and rectify their pace.
I don't mean to bash BMW (too much) but the notion that they didn't have an engineering problem worthy enough of BMW to work on is just plain false especially for this year (though I agree that upcoming years will be iterative).
I hope Mario and the Hinwill boys find a nice home so they can continue racing as I do believe they are a good group. F1 is just a very high level of motorsports.
07-31-09, 12:06 PM
#32
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Mr Johnson,
You make valid points here as well
They did mangage to blow up Kubica's engines or is it the other way around?
As far as i know, they are only allowed to refine the engines to last longer (which from the sources i've read, don't need much of an engineering talent or team / alot of engine team leads, personel either quit or where let go/repositioned elsewhere in their companies) and on top of that there is the imposed rev limit @ 18,000 rpms which greatly helps in adding longevity to these engines.
KERS: This was indeed a massive fail for them because with the new rules for 2009 they figured they would just put the bulk of their development time and $$ towards Kers and completely dismissed what is always important - the chassis / aerodynamics. To an extent you can argue that it was the same for Mclaren and Ferrari, i believe they were better able to adapt to get rear downforce in their chassis by evidence of the last race where they finished 1 and 2 on the podium. Even with their KERS, Mclaren and Ferrari were also basically backmarkers at the start of the season. Remember with the same Mercedes engine, the Brawn GP of Jensen Button lapped Hamilton with his KERS!
What it boils down to is each teams interpretation of the new rules.
This is why the Double Decker Diffuser debacle was so big. That said, a good chassis design is huge, look how competitive the Red Bull cars were before even without the double deck diffuser.
BMW also faced a bad situation with bad car balance and placement of the KERS system especially due to Kubica being a very tall and heavier driver than his teammate and i believe him to be a step above Heidfeld behind the wheel.
Yes, even with all their hard work on KERS, the Mercedes implementation seems to be the best at the moment. Ferrari and Renault systems are close.
BTW, Williams, who is exempt from this and not part of FOTA plan on introducing a completely different KERS concept to the battery based ones currently used using a flywheel to capture and generate the kinetic energy boost for their system.
And now it has just about completely backfired on BMW because there is a gentlemans agreement in FOTA to not include KERS on the grid for 2010 so that leaves BMW with no KERS and what basically is a bad car/chassis (now i read that teams are re-evaluating the decision based on the 1-2 finish of Mclaren and Ferrari in Hungary and that it may not have been a bad investment of dollars)
For BMW the auto company and it's execs, it is an even worse situation because they also hoped that the image of a successful/winning car with KERS would help to boost recognition of their road car hybrid systems and now this is just not the case further backing their reason to quit F1. The rumor is Mario Theissen was only given 3 years to win the championship and that has failed. As you say F1 is highly competive and regardless of how good you are or how much you spend, you never know how well you can compete year to year. Did anyone expect BMW to be racing for positons against Force India?
You make valid points here as well
They did mangage to blow up Kubica's engines or is it the other way around?
As far as i know, they are only allowed to refine the engines to last longer (which from the sources i've read, don't need much of an engineering talent or team / alot of engine team leads, personel either quit or where let go/repositioned elsewhere in their companies) and on top of that there is the imposed rev limit @ 18,000 rpms which greatly helps in adding longevity to these engines.KERS: This was indeed a massive fail for them because with the new rules for 2009 they figured they would just put the bulk of their development time and $$ towards Kers and completely dismissed what is always important - the chassis / aerodynamics. To an extent you can argue that it was the same for Mclaren and Ferrari, i believe they were better able to adapt to get rear downforce in their chassis by evidence of the last race where they finished 1 and 2 on the podium. Even with their KERS, Mclaren and Ferrari were also basically backmarkers at the start of the season. Remember with the same Mercedes engine, the Brawn GP of Jensen Button lapped Hamilton with his KERS!
What it boils down to is each teams interpretation of the new rules.
This is why the Double Decker Diffuser debacle was so big. That said, a good chassis design is huge, look how competitive the Red Bull cars were before even without the double deck diffuser.
BMW also faced a bad situation with bad car balance and placement of the KERS system especially due to Kubica being a very tall and heavier driver than his teammate and i believe him to be a step above Heidfeld behind the wheel.
Yes, even with all their hard work on KERS, the Mercedes implementation seems to be the best at the moment. Ferrari and Renault systems are close.
BTW, Williams, who is exempt from this and not part of FOTA plan on introducing a completely different KERS concept to the battery based ones currently used using a flywheel to capture and generate the kinetic energy boost for their system.
And now it has just about completely backfired on BMW because there is a gentlemans agreement in FOTA to not include KERS on the grid for 2010 so that leaves BMW with no KERS and what basically is a bad car/chassis (now i read that teams are re-evaluating the decision based on the 1-2 finish of Mclaren and Ferrari in Hungary and that it may not have been a bad investment of dollars)
For BMW the auto company and it's execs, it is an even worse situation because they also hoped that the image of a successful/winning car with KERS would help to boost recognition of their road car hybrid systems and now this is just not the case further backing their reason to quit F1. The rumor is Mario Theissen was only given 3 years to win the championship and that has failed. As you say F1 is highly competive and regardless of how good you are or how much you spend, you never know how well you can compete year to year. Did anyone expect BMW to be racing for positons against Force India?
Last edited by MelF1fan; 07-31-09 at 12:10 PM.
07-31-09, 03:26 PM
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BMW where the first to chuck their development of KERS after being the biggest proponent of introducing it this year. That came way before FOTAs gentlemen's agreement. No way you can spin that.
Mr J makes a lot of gret points. Pretty much agree with all of em.
Mr J makes a lot of gret points. Pretty much agree with all of em.
08-01-09, 10:00 AM
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Autosport
The FIA has announced that a new Concorde Agreement has been signed by president Max Mosley, heralding a final resolution to the political rows that rocked Formula 1 in the first half of 2009.
"The new Concorde Agreement, which runs until 31 December 2012, provides for a continuation of the procedures in the 1998 Concorde Agreement, with decisions taken by working groups and commissions, upon which all teams have voting rights, before going to the WMSC for ratification."
All the teams entered for the 2010 Formula 1 world championship have signed up to the agreement with exception of BMW Sauber.
The FIA has announced that a new Concorde Agreement has been signed by president Max Mosley, heralding a final resolution to the political rows that rocked Formula 1 in the first half of 2009.
"The new Concorde Agreement, which runs until 31 December 2012, provides for a continuation of the procedures in the 1998 Concorde Agreement, with decisions taken by working groups and commissions, upon which all teams have voting rights, before going to the WMSC for ratification."
All the teams entered for the 2010 Formula 1 world championship have signed up to the agreement with exception of BMW Sauber.
