FinalBurst

I completely agree. Apart from the HS, which is even debatable whether or not it was somewhat insulting, their sum ups were pretty much on point.

LexFather

Not a coincidence who the 3 people who agree with MT are.

Yall like 4th grade level garbage writing?

RNM GS3

I agree with MT, its actually sad to see Lexus not having even 1 car that is for people that actually like to DRIVE cars. (ISF is a good start, but its small and has 4 doors) The styling has been HORRIBLE also. I still mix up the LS and the Camry.

LS no longer beats the Sclass or the new 7. (Please go sit in the new 7 and then go to the LS460 - 7 interior blows it away.) My dad has the LS460 so I have driven it many times, but i would NEVER buy it for myself. He actually likes his previous LS 430 better.

GS - I cant even get a damn RWD GS in nyc - what a joke.
This is the the convo I had with my Lex dealer:
Me - Why is it so hard to get the GS i want?
Dealer - We only get 2-3 month.
Me - Can i special order?
Dealer - No.
Me - Why doesnt the GS sell well?
Dealer - Its too expensive.
Me - The Eclass and 5 series are doing great and cost much more.
Dealer - Not sure.

IMO once the older generation stops being loyal to Lexus it will be in major trouble.

AlexusAnja

Lexus vehicles are made by Toyota different for a reason, because there are different people in this world with different tastes. Lexus is not falling behind in sales to either BMW or MB, so why change what your LOYAL customer wants, which is the "Lexus Experience." If I want the BMW or MB look and feel, then I would buy a BMW or MB. The auto mags all hold other makers up to the "BMW standard" as if it's some all telling holy GOD like level that all should attain to. Maybe as a Lexus owner I'm not interested in my Lexus handling like a BMW? Ever think about that?

I don't think we're fanboys here, we're all realists and know that on paper the Lexus' class for class do not "handle" like their European counterparts, but then the European counterparts do not have the finesse or dealership experience that Lexus has.

*****

ES350: "How to pay too much for a gussied-up Camry" agree , the ES will always be compared to the Camry because it rides on the Camry everything. The more luxurious interior and slight exterior changes only are nice makeup on an otherwise boring face.

GS: "Struggling to set itself apart" - slight disagree . The GS suffers the same "middle child" syndrome that all luxo brand suffer. Where does the 5 fall? It's not as luxurious as the 7, nor is it as popular with the younger crowd than the 3. I think the 5 in many ways suffers the "Marcia Marcia Marcia" syndrome....

HS250h: "How to pay too much for a gussied-up Prius" agree Saw the HS250H as the NY Autoshow and could not see the justification for it's existence as well as the $20K markup on the Prius.

IS/ISC/ISF: "Close to a 3 series but still no cigar" agree overall, but I think the auto mags just don't want to admit their M3 has been beaten by the ISF. It's pure denial... but it'll make the M3 better in the future.

LF-A: "Ferrari money for a Lexus? We'll see" - Can't give it thumbs up or down because it hasn't happened yet. We will see if it becomes true or not. No one thought the LS-H would sell, but it has...

LS: "Still nice, no longer nicest" - disagree for same reason I noted on my preface. The Lexus are designed for a different breed of customer than the European customer. If all cars were the same... who would care for anything?

LexFather

Thank you. Its old and tiring seeing people with their heads up their asses about sport. Lexus excels at being Lexus. People act like they drive so much better or only have looping roads to work. Most every driver I see in a internet godly "Sportier" vehicle is on the phone and not using their signal and taps their breaks like a 3 year old driver. Its a freaking moot point.

People buy sportier for IMAGE mostly and not to use the car to its fullest capability. Some do and kudos to them.

I'm happy in my magazine bashed, internet hated Lexus thank you.

pagemaster

Disagree. The LS460 was designed to take on the European customers. The LS430 was heads above the S/7/A8 but the LS460 now falls to 4th place.

mmarshall

I'll take your word for it on this one, as I don't read Autoweek as much as I used to.....like with you, CAR CHAT takes up a good part of my time now. But I agree with you...it was excellent in the 1990's, before the Internet was as big as it is today.

KILLERGS4

regards to the GS, I don't think they can say this about the 2nd Gen GS ("Struggling to set itself apart"), because that gen GS was Game Changer (import car of the year in 98). The 3rd Gen GS is struggling in more ways than one, and that's fact. 5 series is much more successful in comparison to the GS. 5 series is for the middle age successful business person IMO. 7 obvious is for the successful executive types.

LS is really nice IMO, but 2nd to the S-Class (due to style that is lacking flash).

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

killer, from your sig, you really have 4 mid size sedans and 1 larger (LS430) sedan?!

KILLERGS4

no the GS and BMW are previous cars on mine..

G2Lexus

LS no longer beats the Sclass or the new 7. (Please go sit in the new 7 and then go to the LS460 - 7 interior blows it away.) My dad has the LS460 so I have driven it many times, but i would NEVER buy it for myself. He actually likes his previous LS 430 better.

I had a 2006 750Li before dumping it to get the Lexus. The seats in the BMW are definitely more comfortable but it was short lived as I was busy driving around BMW loaners with my 7 in the shop. In 1 year my 7 was in the shop in excess of 10 times with items ranging from oil leaks, coolant leaks and even an exterior door handle assembly pulling out of the door. Good quality stuff. Comparatively, I have owned my LS for 7+ months now and have only had the routine services performed. I don't even have a Post-It Note on my desk with required repair items like I did for the year I owned my BMW.

I don't know about the BMW 3 or 5 but for the 7 I was told by 2 BMW shop foremen that 7's are fun to drive, junk to own. I couldn't agree more. Going back to 2002, the 7 series BMW has had notorious transmission issues, electrical gremlins and leaks.

As for the new 7's, hop over to Bimmerfest and check out what the new owners are saying about their 100k+ bad decisions.

ls460love

A client of mine has a 2008 7 series that has been in the shop so much (7 mos out of 2 years) he's pushing for Lemon Law action but BMW is fighting... I previously wrote about my neighbor remarking, as she's the head of the local MB loaner prog, how people are regularly experiencing similar levels of reliability issues with MB products.

This is a very complicated subject with myriad variables in both vehicle and driver. It's useless to try to win any arguments here. I'd almost go as far as to say it's like discussing politics or religion... At the end of the day I chose my LS460 because, for me, it has wonderful aesthetics inside and out, has beautiful fit and finish/materials, achieves a sweet blend of luxury and drivability, offers tremendous bang for the buck, and has excellent reliability (40k now without any issues, just two TSiB items). I get into her, close the heavy positive sealing door, and smile.

Do I like certain aspects of the S and 7, YES! Would they be the right choice for my most-well rounded category judging, absolutely not. Not everyone has to have the fastest and best handling (which always has ride trade offs of course!)

I just want to add that my neighbor took my LS for a spin this weekend after I completed her weekly bath. He's no stranger to nice cars, having had a number of BMW's including older 7's, a modern 5, and now a Z4. (He's also a perfectionist automotive stickler). Anyway he said he was floored. He really couldn't believe the fluidity, power, craftsmanship etc... Then I fired up the 19 speakers of the church of Mark Levinson. He said he's never heard anything better and cannot believe it's OEM equipment in any vehicle. Even his wife told us that he counldn't stop going on about it...

Gojirra99

Not the newest one LOL

mmarshall

It may depend on which individual plant the BMW was built in. I've seen some new BMWs that, quality-wise, were almost faultless. Others reminded me of the junk we used to build here in America back in the 70's and 80's. For instance, when I reviewed a new M3 last year (a car that listed for well over 60K, I might add), it took almost 30 minutes to get the driver's seat positioned properly for me because the electric motors for the seat kept cutting in and out slowly or not operating at all. And, then, when I went to check out the rear seat room (as I do in any car review), the entire pull-down arm-rest assembly in the middle of the seat fell right out and landed on the floor......it had never been really attached at the factory, just stuffed into the hole.

AlexusAnja

For those that believe in European design as the apex to everything... do you really believe that the Japanese, Korean, or eventually the Chinese CAN NOT make a vehicle that could compete with the Europeans? There is no magic to how the European vehicles are made, it's just simple design and engineering. You make a torquer engine, give it stiffer suspensions, and tighter steering feel. That's it, no magic. If Toyota wanted to make such a vehicle, they easily could do it. Just look at the GT-R, Nissan was committed to bringing a world beater to the U.S. and they did.

Everything comes down to WHAT the manufacturer wants to make, and who they are aiming their target at. If Lexus designed a "true European" vehicle that handled just like a BMW, they would not win over the BMW diehards anyway because they would never admit that it was better. On top of that, they would lose the Lexus owner that doesn't want the BMW feel. So, they've now lost on both fronts.

Lexus does, what Lexus does best... comfort and pleasure of ownership. We don't want to beat BMW because we don't want to be BMW, we want to be Lexus.