July 2009 Auto Sales
#61
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However I don't think they could predict the complete DOMINATION the new RX has over the competition. The sales goal was 70k and they will sell around 90k. IN A DOWN MARKET
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#62
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Since it has been brought up in this thread already, I think that one place where Lexus could really separate the GS and ES is with GS coupes and convertibles. Since the ES will likely remain sedan only, adding some pizazz and interest to the next gen GS with different variants could really be a great move. The car also needs to be sportier to begin with, and also needs to offer a true optional sports package.
#63
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Most of us here agree the 3GS is not the homerun the 2GS was. The IS is sportier and the ES is larger. However the GS still has its place in the lineup and its not going anywhere. The IS is actually based off the GS now FYI, the first gen IS had its own platform.
The ES will more than likely continue to share platforms with the Camry as teh new RX does and it will continue to get more refined with a hybrid/AWD probably coming next go round.
The GS fights the 5/E etc. It drives like a bigger IS not anything like the ES. The ES has its core buyers who want something like a LS but more affordable.
Your hypothesis is just that, a hypothesis. It has merit as we have discussed how the ES may take some GS sales away. However I feel the COMPETITION has stepped up against the 3GS whereas with the 2GS it was really just the 5/E/GS. Today we have those cars and now the very good A6, XF, M35/45, MKZ, S80, RL.
I do know having driven both extensively they are nothing alike. The new GS will grow in size and hopefully be a hit like the 2GS was.
Amazingly the 2006 GS outsold any year of the 98-05 GS.
I agree that hopefully the GS "shines" more than this model next go round.
GS-F anyone?![Smilie](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
The ES will more than likely continue to share platforms with the Camry as teh new RX does and it will continue to get more refined with a hybrid/AWD probably coming next go round.
The GS fights the 5/E etc. It drives like a bigger IS not anything like the ES. The ES has its core buyers who want something like a LS but more affordable.
Your hypothesis is just that, a hypothesis. It has merit as we have discussed how the ES may take some GS sales away. However I feel the COMPETITION has stepped up against the 3GS whereas with the 2GS it was really just the 5/E/GS. Today we have those cars and now the very good A6, XF, M35/45, MKZ, S80, RL.
I do know having driven both extensively they are nothing alike. The new GS will grow in size and hopefully be a hit like the 2GS was.
Amazingly the 2006 GS outsold any year of the 98-05 GS.
I agree that hopefully the GS "shines" more than this model next go round.
GS-F anyone?
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I believe that merdecedes CLS was basically MB's answer to the 2GS. I know that on paper the GS competes with the E, but in real world thats just not true, the E is mostly a competitor for the ES. I know that they are priced differently, but they appeal to the same type of customer - they are both as vanilla as they get, spacious, boring, smooth riding with no hint of sportiness, at least if you're comparing to the base 6 cylinder E class. Basically people who bought the E class were people that wanted the S class, but couldnt quite come up with the dough. Same with the ES, it was for people who couldnt afford the LS. Now, I'm not saying they are bad cars by any means, they are very good vehicles in their own means, I just dont think anyone in the right mind would want an E over S or ES over LS.
Now when the GS was introduced it was completely different, especially the 2GS, it was simply the most wickid sedan out there. It was basically a luxury sedan for people who dont like luxury sedans.
Now, MB took this idea even further with the CLS, while Lexus watered the 3GS down. Your average customers dont give two poops whether the car is RWD or FWD, when you go to the Lexus dealership, and you compared the GS to ES they are both virtually the same, both equally boring, and the ES being way cheaper and actually a lot more spacious, the choice is clear.
In fact someone posted in one of the threads that they couldnt find a RWD GS350 in NY. That is so true, I dont remember ever seeing a non AWD GS350 on the road here in NYC - they all seem to have the AWD badge. And I only seen five or six 430's, two or three 450h's, and one 460. So I'd say that most people who bought the 3GS are the ones who wanted AWD option, and had it been available on the ES, they would probably opt for the AWD ES instead.
Now, if Lexus does another case of "something wickid this way comes" with the 4GS, and makes it more of a CLS, but perhaps a little more practial, it will be a hit.
#64
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The ES and GS are apples and oranges. Has anyone driven both? You can have the FWD, bigger ES, it's great for its market but does NOTHING for me and other GS buyers.
You guys are way to quick to quit on the GS. The GS has been Lexus midsize RWD competitor since 1993. It will continue to do so with the 4GS. Will a coupe/wagon, GS-F come? We can hope so.
IS/ES/HS entry level competitors
GS mid size competitor
LS large flagship
Why would Lexus totally go at a different Market with the ES when the current model sells so well? It just sold 4k in a downmarket and sells better than newer cars! The ES market is older and Lexus won't abandon them.
The GS has a MUCH MUCH MUCH more competitive segment today than with the 2GS. The 2GS had the E/5 and a bunch of also rans. Today the 3GS has some serious competition from EVERYONE from the A6 to even the new Genesis as bitkahuna has stated.
You guys are way to quick to quit on the GS. The GS has been Lexus midsize RWD competitor since 1993. It will continue to do so with the 4GS. Will a coupe/wagon, GS-F come? We can hope so.
IS/ES/HS entry level competitors
GS mid size competitor
LS large flagship
Why would Lexus totally go at a different Market with the ES when the current model sells so well? It just sold 4k in a downmarket and sells better than newer cars! The ES market is older and Lexus won't abandon them.
The GS has a MUCH MUCH MUCH more competitive segment today than with the 2GS. The 2GS had the E/5 and a bunch of also rans. Today the 3GS has some serious competition from EVERYONE from the A6 to even the new Genesis as bitkahuna has stated.
#65
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A recent interview has a Lexus exec admitting they depend too much on the RX/ES and will continue to diversify.
However I don't think they could predict the complete DOMINATION the new RX has over the competition. The sales goal was 70k and they will sell around 90k. IN A DOWN MARKET![EEK!](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/eek1.gif)
However I don't think they could predict the complete DOMINATION the new RX has over the competition. The sales goal was 70k and they will sell around 90k. IN A DOWN MARKET
![EEK!](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/eek1.gif)
When you have an RX, (being an RX owner myself), as opposed to the sedan buyer who may be looking to move up from entry-lux to mid-size and eventually full/flagship lux, there's no compelling reason to move any further (short of having a big family and needing the space). My next "upgrade" isn't to move up to bigger, it's to get newer, meaning move from first gen RX to 2nd gen, 1st gen RX to 3rd gen, or 2nd gen RX to 3rd gen.
I'd be interested in knowing what % of new RX buyers are repeat RX buyers.
#66
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The ES and GS are apples and oranges. Has anyone driven both? You can have the FWD, bigger ES, it's great for its market but does NOTHING for me and other GS buyers.
You guys are way to quick to quit on the GS. The GS has been Lexus midsize RWD competitor since 1993. It will continue to do so with the 4GS. Will a coupe/wagon, GS-F come? We can hope so.
IS/ES/HS entry level competitors
GS mid size competitor
LS large flagship
Why would Lexus totally go at a different Market with the ES when the current model sells so well? It just sold 4k in a downmarket and sells better than newer cars! The ES market is older and Lexus won't abandon them.
The GS has a MUCH MUCH MUCH more competitive segment today than with the 2GS. The 2GS had the E/5 and a bunch of also rans. Today the 3GS has some serious competition from EVERYONE from the A6 to even the new Genesis as bitkahuna has stated.
You guys are way to quick to quit on the GS. The GS has been Lexus midsize RWD competitor since 1993. It will continue to do so with the 4GS. Will a coupe/wagon, GS-F come? We can hope so.
IS/ES/HS entry level competitors
GS mid size competitor
LS large flagship
Why would Lexus totally go at a different Market with the ES when the current model sells so well? It just sold 4k in a downmarket and sells better than newer cars! The ES market is older and Lexus won't abandon them.
The GS has a MUCH MUCH MUCH more competitive segment today than with the 2GS. The 2GS had the E/5 and a bunch of also rans. Today the 3GS has some serious competition from EVERYONE from the A6 to even the new Genesis as bitkahuna has stated.
And the ES is doing as well as its doing because its priced as an entry level but competes with competitions midlevel.
Imagine this scenario - the ES gets cancelled tomorrow. Just outright killed off, gone, no more. What do you think the potential ES customers are going to buy instead, - IS, 3, C, G or E, GS, 5, M? Of course its a money issue as well, but aside that I think most would opt for the second group of cars.
#67
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As I have mentioned in the past, I think the largest "problem" the for the 3GS has been the ES 350. To all of us, the GS would probably be a clear choice over the ES because it's RWD and somewhat more performance oriented but to the car buying public, the ES is slightly larger and more comfortable, offers nearly all of the same features, costs noticeably less, and isn't really a significantly different driving car unless you start to get aggressive.
As mentioned above, I have given my opinions on the ES vs. GS several times, and did so after I drove both for a few weeks in the summer of 2007. The GS 300/350's artificial steering and "numb" driving experience really don't feel drastically different from the ES 350 in every day driving. If you start to get aggressive then yes, the ES feels front heavy and has more body roll but it is not the "boat" that the old ES 330 was, while the 2GS was sharper steering and feeling than the 3GS.
Six years ago, the difference between an ES330 and GS 300/430 was night and day. Today, drive an ES 350 and GS 350 back-to-back and it's more like the difference between night and dusk, so to speak. They're a lot alike, believe it or not. Both cars have moved more towards the middle from their respective "extremes" and the end result has been "Why pay 10K more for a GS?".
This generation of ES is stiffer, sharper, and more grown up. It's far from a 5 series, but for the buyer looking for a midsize sedan that is comfortable, well appointed with competitive luxury features, has potent engine, and a premium badge there is little reason to look anywhere else. Cars like the 5 series and E class offer more tech, more performance, and more passion, but cost twice as much. Problem is...the GS is one of those cars but does not offer as much sport as the 5 or E, and does not offer any significant technology aside from the hybrid powertrain from the GS 450h.
As the ES 350 bulked up and brushed up, this generation of GS was debuted with lackluster powertrain options, completely unsporty driving dynamics, ultra-artificial steering, and mediocre handling. While I would usually say that there is nothing wrong with "unsporty", between the similarly sized and optioned, lower priced ES, and the higher line, higher profle LS, the GS has simply been forgotten- because it is not significantly different from the other two. The only way to go is sportier- harder, better steering, handling, and more power so that it doesn't feel anything remotely like an ES 350 or LS 460. There needs to be a compelling reason to buy a GS over an ES or LS because right now- there isn't.
Many of you have mentioned exterior and interior styling to be a weak point for the GS, and while I can understand those qualms, I think they are hardly the reason for it's demise. Parked next to an A6, STS, M, E, and 5 series, the GS holds it's own. It's now four-and-a-half years old so yes, this design is supposed to look somewhat dated. Even then, it is still sleek, sexy, and athletic in overall exterior appearance. The front lower fascia could have been more interesting, and the rear could use a little pizzaz as well, and the 17" wheels on the 06-07 were perhaps the worst wheel option possible, but this is not a bad looking car. With the right wheels and the right color, I actually think it is downright sexy and I always have.
The interior, much like the exterior, is 8/10ths of the way there. Like Mike, I think that the detail and design in the doors is truly beautiful. It's very unique and tastefully done with wood and leather in the right places. The center stack however, is quite plain though user friendly and simple. The eight circular buttons on either side of the nav screen just don't look as tastefully integrated and well executed as they could. The LS and IS have a better design here, IMO. Other than that, there is little to complain about in my eyes. Unlike other Lexus models, it maintained most of the wood from the previous generation, has attractive and comfortable seats, and a seating position that is more reminiscent of a cockpit than any other Lexus. I have harped on and on about interior color choices, and this is certainly a sore spot for the 3GS. When you pay $50-65K for a car, you want more interior choices than a Toyota Corolla. They really dropped the ball, but the grey and black interiors are nice...cashmere is less attractive IMO.
We often talk about the difference between enthusiasts and average car buyers, and as I have now made obvious, the 3GS has not resonated with either. In terms of value, it is spanked by the ES and in terms of Lexus-like prestige and features, the LS 460 obliterates it. It's sales are being cannibalized from both top and bottom by cars that wear the same badge. For enthusiasts, it is not even as brash as the 2GS, let alone the 5 series and others. It's easy to say, "To the average consumer, horsepower and handling don't matter," but this generation GS has proven that the opposite is true. When dropping $50+K on a midsize, RWD luxury sport sedan, it does seem to matter. Someone is bound to raise the BMW 528i comparison, but I am sure that the 535i and 550i both handily outsell the GS 350 and GS 460, and neither have the in-house competition from an ES-type vehicle.
I really hope that the 3GS has been a learning experience for Lexus. The disappointment for many of us on this forum is because the 2GS was a ground breaking car in nearly every regard. Lexus did not follow up on that formula the third time around, and instead gave us a car that is less sporty and less compelling, while it's LS and ES brothers made their own compelling cases for purchase. With the 4GS, Lexus needs to set out to create a sporty, luxurious, high tech midsize sedan with a "no-holds" attitude. It's clear that Lexus was afraid to step on the LS' heels in terms of power and technology, meanwhile the German competition carries twice the content of the GS. Between it's own brothers (LS and ES) and the competition (5, E, A6, etc) the GS has simply been forgotten- and rightfully so. It's just not the car it once was. I am crossing my fingers that they get it right next time...
As mentioned above, I have given my opinions on the ES vs. GS several times, and did so after I drove both for a few weeks in the summer of 2007. The GS 300/350's artificial steering and "numb" driving experience really don't feel drastically different from the ES 350 in every day driving. If you start to get aggressive then yes, the ES feels front heavy and has more body roll but it is not the "boat" that the old ES 330 was, while the 2GS was sharper steering and feeling than the 3GS.
Six years ago, the difference between an ES330 and GS 300/430 was night and day. Today, drive an ES 350 and GS 350 back-to-back and it's more like the difference between night and dusk, so to speak. They're a lot alike, believe it or not. Both cars have moved more towards the middle from their respective "extremes" and the end result has been "Why pay 10K more for a GS?".
This generation of ES is stiffer, sharper, and more grown up. It's far from a 5 series, but for the buyer looking for a midsize sedan that is comfortable, well appointed with competitive luxury features, has potent engine, and a premium badge there is little reason to look anywhere else. Cars like the 5 series and E class offer more tech, more performance, and more passion, but cost twice as much. Problem is...the GS is one of those cars but does not offer as much sport as the 5 or E, and does not offer any significant technology aside from the hybrid powertrain from the GS 450h.
As the ES 350 bulked up and brushed up, this generation of GS was debuted with lackluster powertrain options, completely unsporty driving dynamics, ultra-artificial steering, and mediocre handling. While I would usually say that there is nothing wrong with "unsporty", between the similarly sized and optioned, lower priced ES, and the higher line, higher profle LS, the GS has simply been forgotten- because it is not significantly different from the other two. The only way to go is sportier- harder, better steering, handling, and more power so that it doesn't feel anything remotely like an ES 350 or LS 460. There needs to be a compelling reason to buy a GS over an ES or LS because right now- there isn't.
Many of you have mentioned exterior and interior styling to be a weak point for the GS, and while I can understand those qualms, I think they are hardly the reason for it's demise. Parked next to an A6, STS, M, E, and 5 series, the GS holds it's own. It's now four-and-a-half years old so yes, this design is supposed to look somewhat dated. Even then, it is still sleek, sexy, and athletic in overall exterior appearance. The front lower fascia could have been more interesting, and the rear could use a little pizzaz as well, and the 17" wheels on the 06-07 were perhaps the worst wheel option possible, but this is not a bad looking car. With the right wheels and the right color, I actually think it is downright sexy and I always have.
The interior, much like the exterior, is 8/10ths of the way there. Like Mike, I think that the detail and design in the doors is truly beautiful. It's very unique and tastefully done with wood and leather in the right places. The center stack however, is quite plain though user friendly and simple. The eight circular buttons on either side of the nav screen just don't look as tastefully integrated and well executed as they could. The LS and IS have a better design here, IMO. Other than that, there is little to complain about in my eyes. Unlike other Lexus models, it maintained most of the wood from the previous generation, has attractive and comfortable seats, and a seating position that is more reminiscent of a cockpit than any other Lexus. I have harped on and on about interior color choices, and this is certainly a sore spot for the 3GS. When you pay $50-65K for a car, you want more interior choices than a Toyota Corolla. They really dropped the ball, but the grey and black interiors are nice...cashmere is less attractive IMO.
We often talk about the difference between enthusiasts and average car buyers, and as I have now made obvious, the 3GS has not resonated with either. In terms of value, it is spanked by the ES and in terms of Lexus-like prestige and features, the LS 460 obliterates it. It's sales are being cannibalized from both top and bottom by cars that wear the same badge. For enthusiasts, it is not even as brash as the 2GS, let alone the 5 series and others. It's easy to say, "To the average consumer, horsepower and handling don't matter," but this generation GS has proven that the opposite is true. When dropping $50+K on a midsize, RWD luxury sport sedan, it does seem to matter. Someone is bound to raise the BMW 528i comparison, but I am sure that the 535i and 550i both handily outsell the GS 350 and GS 460, and neither have the in-house competition from an ES-type vehicle.
I really hope that the 3GS has been a learning experience for Lexus. The disappointment for many of us on this forum is because the 2GS was a ground breaking car in nearly every regard. Lexus did not follow up on that formula the third time around, and instead gave us a car that is less sporty and less compelling, while it's LS and ES brothers made their own compelling cases for purchase. With the 4GS, Lexus needs to set out to create a sporty, luxurious, high tech midsize sedan with a "no-holds" attitude. It's clear that Lexus was afraid to step on the LS' heels in terms of power and technology, meanwhile the German competition carries twice the content of the GS. Between it's own brothers (LS and ES) and the competition (5, E, A6, etc) the GS has simply been forgotten- and rightfully so. It's just not the car it once was. I am crossing my fingers that they get it right next time...
One product that always perplexed me was the GS. You would have middle age successful business men and women come in, drive it, and then come back for a drink while their salesman got the numbers together. I'd ask what they thought and the response was ALWAYS the same: "It just doesn't drive quite like the Bimmer. Have you driven that 5xxi? The GS just isn't right..I dunno." or "The E Class is smoother and the interior just seems a lot nicer." You also hear that the back is small or the headroom is cramped, but I never failed to hear comparisons to the 5 and E in which the GS never fared well. Most GS buyers were people looking to upgrade from ESs or downsize from LSs. A lot of IS owners I talked to aspire to 5 series or E classes, not GSs. There is a big disconnect here for Lexus.
Overall, I would have a hard time buying the GS over the ES (though the GS 350 might sweeten the deal for me). The GS looks great inside and out, but does not have the demeanor to match it's sporty looks and cockpit. Awkard steering throws off the entire driving experience, while the rest of the car really seems flawless. The ES, while less attractive inside and out, offers many of the same features for less money, is slightly more comfortable for rear passengers, and to be honest, is more pleasant to pilot. It also has a better sized trunk, and somehow the SmartKey works way better and much faster on the ES than the GS. Walk up and just reach for the handle, and the lights pop on, the car unlocks. With the GS you have to walk up and grab the handle for a second, and then it unlocks. Minor detail, but noteworthy none the less. The GS is also not significantly sportier than the ES until you really get into it, and even then the steering soils the experience for me. I feel like Lexus needs to put greater emphasis on making the GS a drivers car when the ES is similarly sized, featured, powered, and costs less money. The ES is really no longer a boat, and does not create the same drama in mildly spirited driving that the ES 330 did. The GS needs to be established as a sportier car that drives significantly different from the ES, because as I really see it now, there isn't much reason to spend an extra $10K on the GS when the ES is really a good car for the money
Why would Lexus totally go at a different Market with the ES when the current model sells so well? It just sold 4k in a downmarket and sells better than newer cars! The ES market is older and Lexus won't abandon them.
The GS has a MUCH MUCH MUCH more competitive segment today than with the 2GS. The 2GS had the E/5 and a bunch of also rans. Today the 3GS has some serious competition from EVERYONE from the A6 to even the new Genesis as bitkahuna has stated.
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Last edited by MPLexus301; 08-04-09 at 10:43 AM.
#69
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I'm really glad to see the IS continue to be a good performer for Lexus, without the breakdown I'd speculate that the IS-C has helped give sales a boost...here in SoCal I've seen quite a few already, they along with the new RX are popping up around town.
Wonder how much CforC offers played in the luxury market this past month?
As for the ES/GS rumors, I too agree that there is too much overlap, if in practical details (size, room, features) than in intent (sporty RWD vs. entry-luxe FWD), between the two vehicles. We've now had these rumors/speculation:
My thoughts at this point:
1. ES/new platform rumors: these have been the most commonly promulgated by some news sites/publications, with a few stating that the ES may get cancelled. Initially I thought this was quite plausible, and welcomed it particularly to bring RWD to the ES line. But I'm now leaning toward this as rumor, given Toyota's new cost controls and reported desire to cut down on platforms. I'd like to see a RWD ES, but with the Camry-ES connection being so successful, I'm doubting that they would discontinue that for compelling reason. I'd like to see it, but not expecting to at this point. The ES has always been a Camry-based vehicle; the ES 350 chief engineer has worked on all five generations--consistency plays a role here. Absent of any official leaks or comments, not expecting it. However:
-- what about a different FWD platform?
-- if RWD, what about the GS platform?
-- also, it seems RWD could impact the rear-seat space, which is a key ES selling point.
2. 4GS becomes a CLS rival. Maybe, but this is absent of any rumor or news speculation. This would cede the midsize luxury sport sedan market unless the 6ES comes in with RWD and a higher price. However it would solve the GS/ES overlap. At this point however, given the arrival of the HS, I think Lexus is not afraid of size similarities provided that the mission profiles are distinct. The HS is a dedicated hybrid, the IS an entry-luxury sport sedan, the ES their entry-luxury midsize sedan. The GS could be successful, if its performance aspect amped up, and its features and luxury made clearly above the ES but without demoting the ES too much (that line was already hewn with the current 5ES). The 2GS was able to do this while the 3ES and 4ES were selling. So I'm not necessarily expecting the CLS model, although it sounds intriguing, because that is a niche market, unless the ES becomes a RWD sports sedan. Otherwise, with regards to the GS, the midsize RWD sedan market is too large for Lexus to ignore. Some additional thoughts:
-- like others have said, the 4GS needs to be more differentiated
-- it can be the "anti-Lexus" in some ways like the 2GS was
-- it needs more room as a selling point over the E/5
-- The LS 460 L gives some room at the upper end for an upmarket GS
3. ES gets cancelled? I think this is possibly a misinterpretation of the "last ES/Camry" reports. Unless Lexus wants to drop its best-selling car, this will not happen. If anything, the numbers argument suggests that the GS could be cancelled (and this was considered after the poor 1GS sales in its later years). But either way, they are linked:
-- ES cancellation would free up GS in the lineup
-- GS cancellation would free up ES in the lineup
-- ES moving to RWD would affect GS mission profile
Wonder how much CforC offers played in the luxury market this past month?
As for the ES/GS rumors, I too agree that there is too much overlap, if in practical details (size, room, features) than in intent (sporty RWD vs. entry-luxe FWD), between the two vehicles. We've now had these rumors/speculation:
Originally Posted by Next-gen Lexus rumors
1. 6ES will no longer be Camry-based (RWD platform?)
2. 4GS will become more of a CLS competitor (4-door coupe?)
3. ES gets cancelled (yes this has been speculated by some sites!)
2. 4GS will become more of a CLS competitor (4-door coupe?)
3. ES gets cancelled (yes this has been speculated by some sites!)
1. ES/new platform rumors: these have been the most commonly promulgated by some news sites/publications, with a few stating that the ES may get cancelled. Initially I thought this was quite plausible, and welcomed it particularly to bring RWD to the ES line. But I'm now leaning toward this as rumor, given Toyota's new cost controls and reported desire to cut down on platforms. I'd like to see a RWD ES, but with the Camry-ES connection being so successful, I'm doubting that they would discontinue that for compelling reason. I'd like to see it, but not expecting to at this point. The ES has always been a Camry-based vehicle; the ES 350 chief engineer has worked on all five generations--consistency plays a role here. Absent of any official leaks or comments, not expecting it. However:
-- what about a different FWD platform?
-- if RWD, what about the GS platform?
-- also, it seems RWD could impact the rear-seat space, which is a key ES selling point.
2. 4GS becomes a CLS rival. Maybe, but this is absent of any rumor or news speculation. This would cede the midsize luxury sport sedan market unless the 6ES comes in with RWD and a higher price. However it would solve the GS/ES overlap. At this point however, given the arrival of the HS, I think Lexus is not afraid of size similarities provided that the mission profiles are distinct. The HS is a dedicated hybrid, the IS an entry-luxury sport sedan, the ES their entry-luxury midsize sedan. The GS could be successful, if its performance aspect amped up, and its features and luxury made clearly above the ES but without demoting the ES too much (that line was already hewn with the current 5ES). The 2GS was able to do this while the 3ES and 4ES were selling. So I'm not necessarily expecting the CLS model, although it sounds intriguing, because that is a niche market, unless the ES becomes a RWD sports sedan. Otherwise, with regards to the GS, the midsize RWD sedan market is too large for Lexus to ignore. Some additional thoughts:
-- like others have said, the 4GS needs to be more differentiated
-- it can be the "anti-Lexus" in some ways like the 2GS was
-- it needs more room as a selling point over the E/5
-- The LS 460 L gives some room at the upper end for an upmarket GS
3. ES gets cancelled? I think this is possibly a misinterpretation of the "last ES/Camry" reports. Unless Lexus wants to drop its best-selling car, this will not happen. If anything, the numbers argument suggests that the GS could be cancelled (and this was considered after the poor 1GS sales in its later years). But either way, they are linked:
-- ES cancellation would free up GS in the lineup
-- GS cancellation would free up ES in the lineup
-- ES moving to RWD would affect GS mission profile
#70
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Ford is expected to claim the top spot in Canadian auto sales for the second month in a row as the number of vehicles it sold in July rose by more than 47 per cent from the same month last year.
Ford said Tuesday that it sold 26,788 vehicles last month. The number of trucks rose almost 60 per cent to 21,668 while car sales rose nearly 11 per cent to 5,120.
Korean automakers Hyundai and Kia and German carmaker Audi also reported higher sales.
Hyundai said it had its best July ever, selling 10,488 vehicles in Canada, an increase of 37 per cent from the same month last year.
Kia said it sold 5,110 units, an increase of almost 30 per cent. Audi reported its best July sales ever, up 40 per cent to 822 vehicles.
Other automakers saw sales decline, led by Honda Canada, which reported that sales fell to 12,984 vehicles by its Honda and Acura divisions combined, down 19 per cent from July last year.
Toyota Canada said sales of its Toyota and Lexus brands fell by 12.5 per cent to 19,232 units.
Nissan, which also sells the luxury Infiniti brand, said it sold 7,534 vehicles, a drop of just over three per cent.
Other vehicle makers are expected to release their sales numbers later Tuesday.
Ford said Tuesday that it sold 26,788 vehicles last month. The number of trucks rose almost 60 per cent to 21,668 while car sales rose nearly 11 per cent to 5,120.
Korean automakers Hyundai and Kia and German carmaker Audi also reported higher sales.
Hyundai said it had its best July ever, selling 10,488 vehicles in Canada, an increase of 37 per cent from the same month last year.
Kia said it sold 5,110 units, an increase of almost 30 per cent. Audi reported its best July sales ever, up 40 per cent to 822 vehicles.
Other automakers saw sales decline, led by Honda Canada, which reported that sales fell to 12,984 vehicles by its Honda and Acura divisions combined, down 19 per cent from July last year.
Toyota Canada said sales of its Toyota and Lexus brands fell by 12.5 per cent to 19,232 units.
Nissan, which also sells the luxury Infiniti brand, said it sold 7,534 vehicles, a drop of just over three per cent.
Other vehicle makers are expected to release their sales numbers later Tuesday.
#71
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
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The ES and GS are apples and oranges. Has anyone driven both? You can have the FWD, bigger ES, it's great for its market but does NOTHING for me and other GS buyers.
You guys are way to quick to quit on the GS. The GS has been Lexus midsize RWD competitor since 1993. It will continue to do so with the 4GS. Will a coupe/wagon, GS-F come? We can hope so.
IS/ES/HS entry level competitors
GS mid size competitor
LS large flagship
Why would Lexus totally go at a different Market with the ES when the current model sells so well? It just sold 4k in a downmarket and sells better than newer cars! The ES market is older and Lexus won't abandon them.
The GS has a MUCH MUCH MUCH more competitive segment today than with the 2GS. The 2GS had the E/5 and a bunch of also rans. Today the 3GS has some serious competition from EVERYONE from the A6 to even the new Genesis as bitkahuna has stated.
You guys are way to quick to quit on the GS. The GS has been Lexus midsize RWD competitor since 1993. It will continue to do so with the 4GS. Will a coupe/wagon, GS-F come? We can hope so.
IS/ES/HS entry level competitors
GS mid size competitor
LS large flagship
Why would Lexus totally go at a different Market with the ES when the current model sells so well? It just sold 4k in a downmarket and sells better than newer cars! The ES market is older and Lexus won't abandon them.
The GS has a MUCH MUCH MUCH more competitive segment today than with the 2GS. The 2GS had the E/5 and a bunch of also rans. Today the 3GS has some serious competition from EVERYONE from the A6 to even the new Genesis as bitkahuna has stated.
BMW and Mercedes are similar, with 3/C, 5/E, 7/S. but they don't have an ES competitor. you could say the basic 5 series or basic E350 are it but both are a LOT more expensive. and the 3/C are much smaller.
the IS is sort of close to 3/C but both of those (in sedan form) have a more usable back seat and are more 'practical' while at the same time offering a LOT more variations.
but let's say the ES does in fact take some sales that would otherwise go to 3/C/5/E - that leaves the GS in an odd place. not as practical as a 5/E, not as sporty as some versions, not much cheaper if at all than 5/E, and (and i've said this before), has a huge bullseye on it from the hyundai genesis, which IMO is better looking, and a MUCH better value. so the GS is left in a TINY niche, as a refined curvy reasonably powerful car with V6, V6AWD, V8, and hybrid versions. the V6 is ok, but not really a knockout. the V6AWD has obviously caught on in the NE with foul winter weather, but the front wheel gap alone will kill it anywhere else
![Stick Out Tongue](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/tongue.gif)
for the GS to sell better i believe it needs one or more but not necessarily all of the following:
- blow you away looks
- a real sports package, gives it a modest drop, staggered larger rims, and maybe sports seats and no damned wood on the steering wheel
![Stick Out Tongue](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/tongue.gif)
- more rear seat and trunk space - this is not critical, but without it, it must have one or both of the above
- a less lazy transmission or at least a real sports mode - how about taking some tech from the IS-F?
- a MUCH better interior. when the 2GS was launched, its interior with the black needles on white/green-tinged electroluminescent guages and the center well integrated nav were a HUGE leap over 5/E interiors. the 3GS interior is just, well
![Boring](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/boring.gif)
so that's my 'stimulus' plan for the GS.
![Big Grin](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
#73
Lexus Fanatic
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#74
Lexus Champion
#75
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http://www.freep.com/article/2009080...icles-for-July
Top 20 vehicles for July
The government's cash-for-clunkers program is credited with boosting sales of the Honda Civic and the Ford Focus compared with a year ago.
July 2009 % change 2009 YTD % change
Ford F - Series 36,327 -19% 215,959 -32.4%
Toyota Camry 33,974 -19.4% 184,216 -34.7%
Honda Civic 30,037 3.1% 148,496 -36.6%
Honda Accord 29,774 -28.1% 160,817 -35%
Toyota Corolla 29,593 -14.1% 151,236 -33.9%
Chevrolet Silverado 27,617 -16.3% 177,566 -32.8%
Ford Focus 21,830 43.6% 91,184 -34.2%
Ford Escape 20,241 94.2% 96,643 -5.7%
Nissan Altima 19,252 -21.2% 115,680 -36.6%
Toyota Prius 19,173 29.7% 74,924 -29.5%
Honda CR-V 19,151 9.9% 98,068 -19.8%
Dodge Ram 17,723 16.9% 112,239 -25.3%
Ford Fusion 17,610 66.0% 102,756 4.3%
Toyota RAV4 15,912 32.5% 78,153 -6.4%
Chevrolet Malibu 15,339 -7.8% 91,168 -12.4%
Chevrolet Impala 14,649 9.6% 93,336 -38.7%
Hyundai Elantra 13,616 30.2% 53,520 -26.1%
Hyundai Sonata 13,381 17.3% 73,862 -4.5%
Toyota Tacoma 12,552 7.6% 65,713 -31.4%
Volkswagen Jetta 12,078 30.6% 58,721 5.6%
Source: Autodata Corp.
Top 20 vehicles for July
The government's cash-for-clunkers program is credited with boosting sales of the Honda Civic and the Ford Focus compared with a year ago.
July 2009 % change 2009 YTD % change
Ford F - Series 36,327 -19% 215,959 -32.4%
Toyota Camry 33,974 -19.4% 184,216 -34.7%
Honda Civic 30,037 3.1% 148,496 -36.6%
Honda Accord 29,774 -28.1% 160,817 -35%
Toyota Corolla 29,593 -14.1% 151,236 -33.9%
Chevrolet Silverado 27,617 -16.3% 177,566 -32.8%
Ford Focus 21,830 43.6% 91,184 -34.2%
Ford Escape 20,241 94.2% 96,643 -5.7%
Nissan Altima 19,252 -21.2% 115,680 -36.6%
Toyota Prius 19,173 29.7% 74,924 -29.5%
Honda CR-V 19,151 9.9% 98,068 -19.8%
Dodge Ram 17,723 16.9% 112,239 -25.3%
Ford Fusion 17,610 66.0% 102,756 4.3%
Toyota RAV4 15,912 32.5% 78,153 -6.4%
Chevrolet Malibu 15,339 -7.8% 91,168 -12.4%
Chevrolet Impala 14,649 9.6% 93,336 -38.7%
Hyundai Elantra 13,616 30.2% 53,520 -26.1%
Hyundai Sonata 13,381 17.3% 73,862 -4.5%
Toyota Tacoma 12,552 7.6% 65,713 -31.4%
Volkswagen Jetta 12,078 30.6% 58,721 5.6%
Source: Autodata Corp.