What is the future of front-wheel-drive?
08-04-09, 02:45 PM
#31
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Last, the technology of yesteryear, IMO, was not all bad. While the handling of those cars, with slow recirculating-ball steering and the suspensions of the day, cannot compare to today (and is laughed at by today's car enthusiasts), ride quality, in general, was noticeably more comfortable, cars were not tossed around by bumps as much as they are today, road noise (except for some torsion-bar equipped Chrysler products), was not as pronounced, seats were soft and comfortable (though less supportive), and, in general, cars could seat and carry more. Engine and transmissions (except for the flimsy Chevy Vega) were also done with solid, cast-iron blocks and casings.
Still hanging on to those Lincoln Town Car memories?
08-04-09, 02:50 PM
#32
Lexus Fanatic
The Town Car didn't (yet) exist when I was growing up, in the late 60's-early 70's. Back then, you had even bigger, more massive, 5500-lb. Lincoln Continentals that rode with the stability of a freight locomotive....and, yes, with similiar handling. 
(I did have, for a short time, a girl friend in high school that looked somewhat like that, but was slightly heavier).
(I did have, for a short time, a girl friend in high school that looked somewhat like that, but was slightly heavier).
08-04-09, 02:51 PM
#33
I previously had two Camrys and now have a GS- my Lexus has never ever felt unstable or uneasy in ice, snow or rain, especially moreso than my Camrys. Yes, the TRAC or VSC lights have come on a few times, but the car never faltered. Also consider that my car is nothing compared to the VDIM and similar systems that are now available in many cars.
I am not disagreeing with you that FWD has a slight advantage in foul weather, but the disparity is a far cry from what it once was. I don't think people are walking into car dealerships saying, "Man, I really only want somthing with FWD or AWD because of the weather here." In fact, that seems to hardly be the case. It's nice that AWD is being offered more and more by most manufacturers, but RWD is not synomyous with "up the creek without a paddle" in bad weather.
08-04-09, 03:07 PM
#34
Lexus Fanatic
I feel like you have a somewhat antiquated view of RWD in bad weather conditions. Yes, twenty years ago it was commonplace for people with RWD cars to have to pack sandbags in the trunk or take their 4x4 to work, but this is a lot different now. Systems like VSC, TRAC, VDIM, ABS, transmission modes and others have all been developed to ensure stable and safe driving in a variety of climates. The disparity between FWD and RWD, in foul weather, has narrowed greatly and you mentioned previously that it also has a lot to do with tire choices as well.
Yet, even with all of this, and my careful driving (I am especially careful on snow and ice) winter traction on that car varied from barely acceptable to downright spooky. I once drove it home, on an icy road, from the subway station with the rear end mildly fishtailing and the yellow traction light on almost continuously, even with feather-foot pressure on the gas pedal.
After I got my AWD Subaru Outback, I noticed an ENORMOUS difference...the likes of which I can't describe in words. I had it, the first winter, in 9"+ of snow and never spun my tires once. On another occasion, I went through 5-6" of solid ice-pellets on the ground (sleet), and still got it to the subway station for the morning commute. It slid a very small amount under those terrible conditions, but was basically stable, and easily controllable. Under those conditions, my IS300 (and I'm not exaggerating) wouldn't have moved two feet.
From now on, it's AWD for me.
08-04-09, 04:27 PM
#36
Out of Warranty
Look for the new CAFE regs will throw a monkey wrench into the market. It's not going to be about getting what we want, but wanting what we can get. Achieving 35mpg is going to require downsizing powerplants, looking toward diesel and hybrid technologies, and if some degree of performance is to be preserved, MUCH lighter weight and higher efficiencies.
We do not even need to discuss 400 bhp and 12-second quarter miles, if the CAFE regs are enforced, the only commonly-available cars will be sedans and small SUV's that will carry a max of 4 passengers, be rather tall and upright for space efficiency and limited by aerodynamic requirements. To package 4 adults and a few bags of groceries in a vehicle that is economical, crashworthy, and affordable, we have to do some serious downsizing of our dream cars.
It comes down to this: with fuel economy and safety federally regulated, you get to choose between performance and size. Performance demands extremely light weight. Think Aerial Atom here. Size for ultimate family haulage demands a mini or a mini-minivan. Your choice.
It looks like most of us will be driving new pickups or "classic" cars.
We do not even need to discuss 400 bhp and 12-second quarter miles, if the CAFE regs are enforced, the only commonly-available cars will be sedans and small SUV's that will carry a max of 4 passengers, be rather tall and upright for space efficiency and limited by aerodynamic requirements. To package 4 adults and a few bags of groceries in a vehicle that is economical, crashworthy, and affordable, we have to do some serious downsizing of our dream cars.
It comes down to this: with fuel economy and safety federally regulated, you get to choose between performance and size. Performance demands extremely light weight. Think Aerial Atom here. Size for ultimate family haulage demands a mini or a mini-minivan. Your choice.
It looks like most of us will be driving new pickups or "classic" cars.
08-04-09, 04:36 PM
#37
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When driving the IS300 in the snow I usually shut off the traction control because it doesn't allow me to get anywhere. However, the IS300 doesn't do well in wet conditions in general.
08-04-09, 05:32 PM
#38
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Ten years ago when the Camry V6 had 190hp and the Avalon had 210hp, RWD was the furthest thing from anyone's mind because there simply was no reason and no need. The most recent generation of V6s are all somewhere around 270hp and will likely push beyond that in their next iterations. Into that "next generation" I wonder how automakers will overcome issues like torque steer which is inherently associated with high horsepower FWD cars.
esp. that line about cars having low HP so RWD was never needed.
when has RWD been about HP? that's like saying manual transmissions are no longer needed because automatics shift fast enough now and get equivalent gas mileage.
RWD gives the purest driving experience. that's why car makers use that layout.
and we all know FWD is never going away as long as cars with wheels will be around, simply because of packaging and manufacturing costs.
/thread
08-04-09, 05:46 PM
#39
MPLexus, normally you have well thought out posts but this is one of the worst ones i've read of yours.
esp. that line about cars having low HP so RWD was never needed.
when has RWD been about HP? that's like saying manual transmissions are no longer needed because automatics shift fast enough now and get equivalent gas mileage.
RWD gives the purest driving experience. that's why car makers use that layout.
and we all know FWD is never going away as long as cars with wheels will be around, simply because of packaging and manufacturing costs.
/thread
esp. that line about cars having low HP so RWD was never needed.
when has RWD been about HP? that's like saying manual transmissions are no longer needed because automatics shift fast enough now and get equivalent gas mileage.
RWD gives the purest driving experience. that's why car makers use that layout.
and we all know FWD is never going away as long as cars with wheels will be around, simply because of packaging and manufacturing costs.
/thread
My original topic does not really look so much at the driving experience of FWD vs RWD (we probably all unanimously prefer RWD), but rather the inherent shortcomings and limitations when any more than ~270HP is put into a FWD car. Torque steer becomes a nightmare, the front end is twitchy and becomes unsettled easily, and spirited acceleration usually requires two hands with a firm grip on the steering wheel. As auto brands continue to pump more power into their midsize and larger sedans that are currently FWD, how will they deal with those shortcomings/characteristics?
This isn't a FWD vs RWD debate, but rather about how FWD platforms will handle increasing horsepower in the future.
08-04-09, 05:50 PM
#40
Pole Position
But comparing HP/torque levels to what was available is not necessarily the best way to measure technology. You mention the upcoming 365 HP Taurus SHO of today, and compare it to the last 30 years. Well, 40 years ago, in the late 60's, I grew up with 390 and 427 c.i. Ford "family" sedans, and comparable 396/409/427 Chevy and 383/440/426 Hemi MoPar sedans, that had HP/torque levels that easily surpassed today's new SHO. In fact, for sheer torque, they approached some of today's Mercedes AMG models. But, of course, that was done with sheer engine displacement and 100-octane leaded gas....and the cars were a lot heavier.
08-04-09, 05:51 PM
#41
Pole Position
Concept of this picture is so flawed and doesn't make any sense!
Anyway its not about FWD, RWD or AWD its about implementation of it.
Great FWD (Acura TL-S) owns mediocre RWD (Mustang) and vice versa. RWD AWD in luxury cars like MB, Lexus, BMW, Audi cant stand a chance against FWD based AWD of an Evo in performance shootout and so on.
Yes I hate FWD understeer but also I am one of few that doesn't enjoy RWD oversteer either and I don't perceive it as fun at all. I perceive it as cars incompetence as much as understeer, but some manufacturers (mainly BMW) make their cars oversteer early to make you think you are driving sporty while you are actually not.
Anyway its not about FWD, RWD or AWD its about implementation of it.
Great FWD (Acura TL-S) owns mediocre RWD (Mustang) and vice versa. RWD AWD in luxury cars like MB, Lexus, BMW, Audi cant stand a chance against FWD based AWD of an Evo in performance shootout and so on.
Yes I hate FWD understeer but also I am one of few that doesn't enjoy RWD oversteer either and I don't perceive it as fun at all. I perceive it as cars incompetence as much as understeer, but some manufacturers (mainly BMW) make their cars oversteer early to make you think you are driving sporty while you are actually not.
08-04-09, 07:39 PM
#42
Lexus Fanatic
And what kind of fuel mileage did your 390's and 427's get? 12 mpg on the highway? Maybe?
That's my point. Technology will get us to 400+ HP and 35+ mpg by 2040. Like you said, we don't know the future, but higher HP with ever increasing fuel efficiency is a given.
08-04-09, 07:50 PM
#43
Lexus Fanatic
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More and more manufacturers, as you say, are going to electronic HP/torque control. If there's one thing that drives me nuts, it's doing just that.
Dammit!! if you can't build a FWD layout that will handle the HP, then don't build it, or make it RWD. Limiting Torque and HP in lower gears because the engine has "too much" HP is amazingly moronic.
It's the Stupidest engineering I have ever seen.
It pissed me off to no end.
It's like making gas mileage too good and then manipilating the computer to make it worse. It makes no sense to me. It sickens me the more I see it.
Rant over.
Dammit!! if you can't build a FWD layout that will handle the HP, then don't build it, or make it RWD. Limiting Torque and HP in lower gears because the engine has "too much" HP is amazingly moronic. It's the Stupidest engineering I have ever seen. It pissed me off to no end. It's like making gas mileage too good and then manipilating the computer to make it worse. It makes no sense to me. It sickens me the more I see it. Rant over.
about controlling HP/torque - newsflash, this occurs for RWD and AWD also, so you can't avoid it. VSC (lexus), ETC (gm), DSC (mazda), RSC (ford), etc., etc. all controlling engine power, transmission, sometimes a differential, etc.
game over.
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