What is the future of front-wheel-drive?
08-04-09, 07:55 AM
#1
What is the future of front-wheel-drive?
I was typing up a reply to the "July 2009" sales thread regarding the rumors of the ES switching over to a RWD chassis when I figured that such a notion warrants an entire thread of it's own, so here goes...
A few years ago I read an article titled something to the effect of, "How the Horsepower War Will Kill Front-Wheel-Drive." I never really thought of it in those terms, but it does seem to make a lot of sense when you consider the dynamic limitations associated with packing any more than 260-270HP into a front-wheel-drive car. This would be all fine and dandy if we were still in the age of V6 family sedans having 240hp at most, but we are quickly moving past that as most now offer at least 270hp, and some even a bit more than that.
While this power increase has somewhat been fueled by a horsepower war of sorts, it also has a lot to do with rapidly advancing engine technologies relating to efficiency, and often that is associated with power increase as well. Direct injection is the best example, as are systems like VANOS, VVT-i, VTEC, Valvematic, and several others. Manufacturers are coming up with more ways to squeeze out a few more MPGs here and there, but they're also increasing horsepower at the same time. So yes, this power increase is partly fueled by a competitive spirit between rivals, but also partly because there is an increased focus on efficiency and fuel saving technology.
Hybrids, with instanteous torque, and a renewed interest in forced induction also throw a wrench into the mix, as both increase efficiency (comparatively) and each offers a good dose of power as well.
As engines continue to become more efficient, and in some cases more powerful, where will manufacturers draw the line on front-wheel-drive? Acura is often the butt of all automotive jokes, as they have deliberately squashed all rumors about a rear-wheel-drive future, but they raise another interesting point about AWD systems used to control the extra power in FWD platforms. Yes, it's one way to solve the problem- send the power to all four wheels so that the front two aren't left twitching and shaking when the driver mashes the throttle- but AWD isn't necessarily inexpensive and it can be rather complex. Many consumers, particularly in Southern and Western regions, may not even want an AWD vehicle, so then...what is the future of front-wheel-drive?
Rear-wheel-drive has picked up a good bit of popularity in recent years, along with an increased focus on performance from the majority of the car buying public, and these platforms do handle more neutrally when saddled with more power. To many enthusiasts they handle better even without more power, but when automakers look to venture beyond 270hp or so, RWD almost becomes a necessity if an AWD system of some type is not utilized instead.
There are a few problems facing the mainstream applications of rear-wheel-drive platforms for brands like Ford, Toyota, and Nissan.
1) Image - Even though automakers have made strides with safety nannies and electronic aids, many people still believe that RWD cars are a catastrophe in bad weather. While most of us know that the contrary is true with present-day technology, mainstream consumers might be skeptical.
2) Efficiency - FWD platforms are known to be more efficient in terms of space and packaging, and also typically suffer less parasitic drivetrain loss.
3) Cost Saving- FWD has always been the way for most mainstream brands so switching over to RWD would likely cost billions of dollars when considering badge engineering and multiple-use platforms such as the Camry, which underpins everything from the Camry itself to the Solara, Highlander, RX 350, etc.
4) Luxury Brands- Toyota has Lexus, Nissan has Infiniti, and VW has Audi, all of whose upscale brands use rear-wheel-drive as a differentiating factor between their lower-tier cousins. A RWD Avalon or Maxima could pose a serious sales threat to the GS and M, and even cars like the LS at the far end.
For now, it seems that 270hp in a front-wheel-drive platform is liveable to most consumers as cars like the Camry V6, Accord V6, and ES 350 and Acura TL sell decently and don't garner much criticism from owners about torque steer. Still though, the question remains: how much longer will higher-performing engines (270+ hp) be suitably placed in front-wheel-drive platforms? A lot of the answer has to do with engineering and design, but a great deal of it also relates to asking the front wheels to turn and steer as well as put the power to the ground. It seems natural that companies like Toyota or Nissan that have several RWD platforms in their stables could source them for the next generation Maxima and Avalon if needed, but would they do that considering their luxury brands?
For now I am not saying that the midsize economy sedans like Camry, Accord, Malibu, and Altima should switch to RWD because most of their variants are sold with "lowly" 4 cylinder engines, but V6-equipped FWD sedans like the Avalon, Maxima and ES 350 may be in for a major change of philosophy the next time around. With the new CAFE standards imposed by the government, efficiency has already become the name of the game. It's not unreasonable to think that the Avalon and ES will be endowed with Valvematic and direct injection at the time of their redesigns, and both technologies would likely push the horsepower over 300. At that point will Toyota continue to use FWD platforms even regardless of their inherent limitations, or will they be forced to switch to a rear-wheel-drive alternative, or even incorporate all-wheel-drive?
As we all know, a main differentiator for this generation of GS has been that the ES is FWD, but what if it was to be switched to a RWD platform (rumors have grown louder that the next generation ES, RX, and Avalon may source the RWD Crown chassis, which is what the GS and IS are loosely based off)? Lexus would have to do a significant amount of work to differentiate the two substantially to make a way for two RWD, midsize, high horsepowered V6's in their stable. Even if the ES remains FWD, the argument could be made that this needs to happen anyway, but that is a subject for another discussion. My point is that rear-wheel-drive has long been a seperating factor between mainstream brands like Toyota or Nissan, and luxury marques like Lexus or Infiniti, but with engine power and efficiency on the rise, will these companies be forced to rethink how they engineer and design their cars, or will they have to work to incorporate RWD Toyotas and Nissans into their lineups without stepping on the toes of products like the G, IS, GS, and M? Is that possible?
A few years ago I read an article titled something to the effect of, "How the Horsepower War Will Kill Front-Wheel-Drive." I never really thought of it in those terms, but it does seem to make a lot of sense when you consider the dynamic limitations associated with packing any more than 260-270HP into a front-wheel-drive car. This would be all fine and dandy if we were still in the age of V6 family sedans having 240hp at most, but we are quickly moving past that as most now offer at least 270hp, and some even a bit more than that.
While this power increase has somewhat been fueled by a horsepower war of sorts, it also has a lot to do with rapidly advancing engine technologies relating to efficiency, and often that is associated with power increase as well. Direct injection is the best example, as are systems like VANOS, VVT-i, VTEC, Valvematic, and several others. Manufacturers are coming up with more ways to squeeze out a few more MPGs here and there, but they're also increasing horsepower at the same time. So yes, this power increase is partly fueled by a competitive spirit between rivals, but also partly because there is an increased focus on efficiency and fuel saving technology.
Hybrids, with instanteous torque, and a renewed interest in forced induction also throw a wrench into the mix, as both increase efficiency (comparatively) and each offers a good dose of power as well.
As engines continue to become more efficient, and in some cases more powerful, where will manufacturers draw the line on front-wheel-drive? Acura is often the butt of all automotive jokes, as they have deliberately squashed all rumors about a rear-wheel-drive future, but they raise another interesting point about AWD systems used to control the extra power in FWD platforms. Yes, it's one way to solve the problem- send the power to all four wheels so that the front two aren't left twitching and shaking when the driver mashes the throttle- but AWD isn't necessarily inexpensive and it can be rather complex. Many consumers, particularly in Southern and Western regions, may not even want an AWD vehicle, so then...what is the future of front-wheel-drive?
Rear-wheel-drive has picked up a good bit of popularity in recent years, along with an increased focus on performance from the majority of the car buying public, and these platforms do handle more neutrally when saddled with more power. To many enthusiasts they handle better even without more power, but when automakers look to venture beyond 270hp or so, RWD almost becomes a necessity if an AWD system of some type is not utilized instead.
There are a few problems facing the mainstream applications of rear-wheel-drive platforms for brands like Ford, Toyota, and Nissan.
1) Image - Even though automakers have made strides with safety nannies and electronic aids, many people still believe that RWD cars are a catastrophe in bad weather. While most of us know that the contrary is true with present-day technology, mainstream consumers might be skeptical.
2) Efficiency - FWD platforms are known to be more efficient in terms of space and packaging, and also typically suffer less parasitic drivetrain loss.
3) Cost Saving- FWD has always been the way for most mainstream brands so switching over to RWD would likely cost billions of dollars when considering badge engineering and multiple-use platforms such as the Camry, which underpins everything from the Camry itself to the Solara, Highlander, RX 350, etc.
4) Luxury Brands- Toyota has Lexus, Nissan has Infiniti, and VW has Audi, all of whose upscale brands use rear-wheel-drive as a differentiating factor between their lower-tier cousins. A RWD Avalon or Maxima could pose a serious sales threat to the GS and M, and even cars like the LS at the far end.
For now, it seems that 270hp in a front-wheel-drive platform is liveable to most consumers as cars like the Camry V6, Accord V6, and ES 350 and Acura TL sell decently and don't garner much criticism from owners about torque steer. Still though, the question remains: how much longer will higher-performing engines (270+ hp) be suitably placed in front-wheel-drive platforms? A lot of the answer has to do with engineering and design, but a great deal of it also relates to asking the front wheels to turn and steer as well as put the power to the ground. It seems natural that companies like Toyota or Nissan that have several RWD platforms in their stables could source them for the next generation Maxima and Avalon if needed, but would they do that considering their luxury brands?
For now I am not saying that the midsize economy sedans like Camry, Accord, Malibu, and Altima should switch to RWD because most of their variants are sold with "lowly" 4 cylinder engines, but V6-equipped FWD sedans like the Avalon, Maxima and ES 350 may be in for a major change of philosophy the next time around. With the new CAFE standards imposed by the government, efficiency has already become the name of the game. It's not unreasonable to think that the Avalon and ES will be endowed with Valvematic and direct injection at the time of their redesigns, and both technologies would likely push the horsepower over 300. At that point will Toyota continue to use FWD platforms even regardless of their inherent limitations, or will they be forced to switch to a rear-wheel-drive alternative, or even incorporate all-wheel-drive?
As we all know, a main differentiator for this generation of GS has been that the ES is FWD, but what if it was to be switched to a RWD platform (rumors have grown louder that the next generation ES, RX, and Avalon may source the RWD Crown chassis, which is what the GS and IS are loosely based off)? Lexus would have to do a significant amount of work to differentiate the two substantially to make a way for two RWD, midsize, high horsepowered V6's in their stable. Even if the ES remains FWD, the argument could be made that this needs to happen anyway, but that is a subject for another discussion. My point is that rear-wheel-drive has long been a seperating factor between mainstream brands like Toyota or Nissan, and luxury marques like Lexus or Infiniti, but with engine power and efficiency on the rise, will these companies be forced to rethink how they engineer and design their cars, or will they have to work to incorporate RWD Toyotas and Nissans into their lineups without stepping on the toes of products like the G, IS, GS, and M? Is that possible?
Last edited by MPLexus301; 08-04-09 at 07:59 AM.
08-04-09, 08:58 AM
#2
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
fwd is NEVER going away. it is the only way to inexpensively build small cars.
and in many other applications consumers don't care.
as for greater power, software will rein in how much can be sent to those front wheels in the first 0-30mph after which fwd doesn't matter a whole lot except for aggressive cornering.
probably 15 years ago i remember driving my father-in-law's new 'northstar' cadillac deville. 290hp through the front wheels. no problem at all. great car.
and in many other applications consumers don't care.
as for greater power, software will rein in how much can be sent to those front wheels in the first 0-30mph after which fwd doesn't matter a whole lot except for aggressive cornering.
probably 15 years ago i remember driving my father-in-law's new 'northstar' cadillac deville. 290hp through the front wheels. no problem at all. great car.
08-04-09, 09:06 AM
#4
Well I think your average family sedans such as Camcordtima will remain FWD for as long as they exist. The V6 versions will still have ridiculous torque steer, perhaps somewhat reduced by electronic nannies. And you said that the owners dont complain about torque steer - thats just not true. Talk to Impala SS or Maxima owners, the torque steer on these cars can get scary. Thats just something owners will have to deal with. Getting +-300hp for around 30k is good value, but as a trade off you get FWD.
As far as premium cars I predict they will all have to move to RWD platforms, and most will have optional AWD. Some cars nowadays are so powerful that RWD is not enough to handle all the power, and AWD will be a great improvement, but of course it comes with its own drawbacks - price, maintenance, fuel mileage, weight, drivetrain loss, and tire wear.
As far as premium cars I predict they will all have to move to RWD platforms, and most will have optional AWD. Some cars nowadays are so powerful that RWD is not enough to handle all the power, and AWD will be a great improvement, but of course it comes with its own drawbacks - price, maintenance, fuel mileage, weight, drivetrain loss, and tire wear.
08-04-09, 09:06 AM
#5
Lexus Champion
In the short term, I don't think FWD is going anywhere. Looking at the Top 10 selling vehicles for July, all of the cars on the list (7) are FWD. Cost comes into play there, but that's where the volume is for the mfgrs.
08-04-09, 09:18 AM
#7
I don't think there is any need for cars like the Corolla, Sentra, Civic, Jetta, etc to ever switch to RWD but I think there is a case for cars with V6 engines as standard, that make anything over 270 or so HP.
Ten years ago when the Camry V6 had 190hp and the Avalon had 210hp, RWD was the furthest thing from anyone's mind because there simply was no reason and no need. The most recent generation of V6s are all somewhere around 270hp and will likely push beyond that in their next iterations. Into that "next generation" I wonder how automakers will overcome issues like torque steer which is inherently associated with high horsepower FWD cars.
I wonder just how many bandaids Toyota, Acura, or Nissan can put on their FWD cars to make them dynamically competent, especially for Nissan which likes to position itself as the sporty mainstream brand. I have driven several V6 6th Gen Camrys and if you mash the throttle from 0-10mph, the front end quickly gets unsettled and very shaky/twitchy. The ES 350 we have in the family does the same thing. The 2010 RX 350 I recently had as a loaner did not have any kind of shake or flex, but I am guessing that has to do with the fact that it weighs over 4,000lbs
One Toyota exec was recently talking about the company's future plans and lineup and when asked about the Avalon he mentioned something along the lines of it being "completely different and unlike any previous Avalon". That could just be marketing speak or it could also be legitimate- who knows? As I mentioned above, there have been rumors for a few years now about the ES, RX, and Avalon switching over to a RWD chassis, and recently the Toyota Crown has been mentioned in that same sentence.
A RWD Avalon and ES could easily spell the end of the game for the GS if Lexus doesn't do something drastically different, but would something like that even happen in the first place? How would a RWD Maxima affect the G?
Who knows...
Ten years ago when the Camry V6 had 190hp and the Avalon had 210hp, RWD was the furthest thing from anyone's mind because there simply was no reason and no need. The most recent generation of V6s are all somewhere around 270hp and will likely push beyond that in their next iterations. Into that "next generation" I wonder how automakers will overcome issues like torque steer which is inherently associated with high horsepower FWD cars.
I wonder just how many bandaids Toyota, Acura, or Nissan can put on their FWD cars to make them dynamically competent, especially for Nissan which likes to position itself as the sporty mainstream brand. I have driven several V6 6th Gen Camrys and if you mash the throttle from 0-10mph, the front end quickly gets unsettled and very shaky/twitchy. The ES 350 we have in the family does the same thing. The 2010 RX 350 I recently had as a loaner did not have any kind of shake or flex, but I am guessing that has to do with the fact that it weighs over 4,000lbs
One Toyota exec was recently talking about the company's future plans and lineup and when asked about the Avalon he mentioned something along the lines of it being "completely different and unlike any previous Avalon". That could just be marketing speak or it could also be legitimate- who knows? As I mentioned above, there have been rumors for a few years now about the ES, RX, and Avalon switching over to a RWD chassis, and recently the Toyota Crown has been mentioned in that same sentence.
A RWD Avalon and ES could easily spell the end of the game for the GS if Lexus doesn't do something drastically different, but would something like that even happen in the first place? How would a RWD Maxima affect the G?
Who knows...
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08-04-09, 09:21 AM
#8
Pole Position
fwd is NEVER going away. it is the only way to inexpensively build small cars.
and in many other applications consumers don't care.
as for greater power, software will rein in how much can be sent to those front wheels in the first 0-30mph after which fwd doesn't matter a whole lot except for aggressive cornering.
probably 15 years ago i remember driving my father-in-law's new 'northstar' cadillac deville. 290hp through the front wheels. no problem at all. great car.
and in many other applications consumers don't care.
as for greater power, software will rein in how much can be sent to those front wheels in the first 0-30mph after which fwd doesn't matter a whole lot except for aggressive cornering.
probably 15 years ago i remember driving my father-in-law's new 'northstar' cadillac deville. 290hp through the front wheels. no problem at all. great car.
Dammit!! if you can't build a FWD layout that will handle the HP, then don't build it, or make it RWD. Limiting Torque and HP in lower gears because the engine has "too much" HP is amazingly moronic.
It's the Stupidest engineering I have ever seen.
It pissed me off to no end.
It's like making gas mileage too good and then manipilating the computer to make it worse. It makes no sense to me. It sickens me the more I see it. Rant over.
08-04-09, 09:26 AM
#9
It's also of interest that Toyota has had the Crown listed in their "Concept Vehicles" section for a few years now. I am not trying to read too far into it or make it something that it's not, but Toyota is not typically a company that will show a concept with no future plans of implementing some part of it.
http://www.toyota.com/concept-vehicles/crown.html
The Volta and some other concepts have come and gone quickly, but the Crown has remained on there for quite some time. Could just be as a filler, but it seems odd to show a JDM RWD sedan on the American "Concept Car" section.
http://www.toyota.com/concept-vehicles/crown.html
The Volta and some other concepts have come and gone quickly, but the Crown has remained on there for quite some time. Could just be as a filler, but it seems odd to show a JDM RWD sedan on the American "Concept Car" section.
08-04-09, 09:42 AM
#11
SIDENOTE:
I just read a quick blurb on the Volta concept from 2004:
Does that sound familiar to anyone?
2008 Toyota FTHS Concept:
Make no mistake about it, Toyota has been toying with this technology concept for a long time and it's obviously for a reason
I just read a quick blurb on the Volta concept from 2004:
The concept vehicle named after Alessandro Volta, the Italian physicist who invented the battery, was officially unveiled at the 2004 Geneva Motor Show and it is a study of a hybrid electric sports car. The concept never materialized as a production car due to high costs involved. It features a four wheel drive hybrid electric powertrain of the Lexus RX 400h which combines a 3.3 L V6 gasoline engine with two electric motors. The gasoline engine is fitted behind the rear axle and there are additional two electrically powered engines, one on each axle. The combination develops a maximum output of 300 kW (408 bhp), which enables the car to accelerate from 0 to 100 km/h (0 to 62 mph) in 4.03 seconds and reach the top speed of 250 km/h (155 mph).
Does that sound familiar to anyone?
2008 Toyota FTHS Concept:
Pairing a potent hybrid powertrain with essential sports-car fundamentals, the FT-HS is a mid-priced sports car that integrates ecology and emotion in a concept that addresses the question, "What is a suitable sports car for the 21st century?"
Boasting a powerful V6 3.5L engine, the FT-HS is coupled with Toyota's Hybrid Synergy Drive® to produce a target power output of approximately 400 horsepower and a projected zero-to-60 acceleration in the four-second range. At a mid-priced market position, the FT-HS would be a true "attainable exotic" with 21st-century performance.
Boasting a powerful V6 3.5L engine, the FT-HS is coupled with Toyota's Hybrid Synergy Drive® to produce a target power output of approximately 400 horsepower and a projected zero-to-60 acceleration in the four-second range. At a mid-priced market position, the FT-HS would be a true "attainable exotic" with 21st-century performance.
Make no mistake about it, Toyota has been toying with this technology concept for a long time and it's obviously for a reason
08-04-09, 10:08 AM
#12
Guest
Posts: n/a
Ford said it didn't need AWD for its Focus RS. Now mind you this is a focused ***** out car but its killing the competition in reviews.
For pedestrian vehicles, FWD is not going anywhere. Its cheap to produce and most buyers don't care.
For luxury vehicles we continue to see a shift away from FWD to RWD and AWD for higher end models. We will see MORE FWD luxury branded vehicles as they continue to go into subcompacts etc .
And there is much more to a GS than just RWD over the ES. I can't even begin to compare the two. Apples and Oranges.
For pedestrian vehicles, FWD is not going anywhere. Its cheap to produce and most buyers don't care.
For luxury vehicles we continue to see a shift away from FWD to RWD and AWD for higher end models. We will see MORE FWD luxury branded vehicles as they continue to go into subcompacts etc .
And there is much more to a GS than just RWD over the ES. I can't even begin to compare the two. Apples and Oranges.
08-04-09, 10:17 AM
#13
Lexus Fanatic
1) Image - Even though automakers have made strides with safety nannies and electronic aids, many people still believe that RWD cars are a catastrophe in bad weather. While most of us know that the contrary is true with present-day technology, mainstream consumers might be skeptical.
08-04-09, 10:22 AM
#14
Guest
Posts: n/a
The contrary is NOT true....and people are correct to be skeptical. Traction/stability control, of course, helps, as do good rain/winter tires, but RWD is a natural liability on slick roads. And electronics and tires can only go so far in trying to overcome the laws of physics. Anytime the engine/transmission weight is on the opposite end of the vehicle from the drive wheels, you're going to (potentially) have trouble on slick roads.
More than likely I will never buy a FWD vehicle again.
08-04-09, 10:22 AM
#15
Lexus Fanatic
Ford said it didn't need AWD for its Focus RS. Now mind you this is a focused ***** out car but its killing the competition in reviews.
For pedestrian vehicles, FWD is not going anywhere. Its cheap to produce and most buyers don't care.
For luxury vehicles we continue to see a shift away from FWD to RWD and AWD for higher end models. We will see MORE FWD luxury branded vehicles as they continue to go into subcompacts etc .
And there is much more to a GS than just RWD over the ES. I can't even begin to compare the two. Apples and Oranges.
For pedestrian vehicles, FWD is not going anywhere. Its cheap to produce and most buyers don't care.
For luxury vehicles we continue to see a shift away from FWD to RWD and AWD for higher end models. We will see MORE FWD luxury branded vehicles as they continue to go into subcompacts etc .
And there is much more to a GS than just RWD over the ES. I can't even begin to compare the two. Apples and Oranges.