Phaeton to return to US.
#16
Lexus Test Driver
They should totally redesign it to look like a real competitor. Only problem is that will cost VW an arm & leg. Sell it first in European & world markets to how it is received then sell here in US. AWW just forget it & work on Audi brand. lol
#17
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Its all about how you market the product.
#18
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Pierch continues to be off his rocker trying to compete VW with luxury marques. Sadly as fantastic as the A8 is, it doesn't sell here either. Did they really think an equally as expensive VW would? Hyundai acknowledges this problem with their Equus and don't intend to sell many here.
Check again, the evidence shows people buy Lexus for a multitude of factors.
-Features
-Value
-Luxury
-Quality
-Looks/Style
-MPG/economy
-interior
-ease of use/driver accommodations
-Technology
-Performance
-Image/Panache
-Dealer Service
-etc etc etc
To say its just "value and reliablity" is not painting an accurate picture.
Last time I checked, people tend to purchase lexus's over the compatition due to value and reliability. The Pheaton is great value so saying I wont buy one because its not a smart fiscal discision is a bit strange considering you get a full size luxury barge for entry level luxury car money. Its kind of what hyundai is doing with the genesis and the equiss, while they get prazed vw gets slamed
-Features
-Value
-Luxury
-Quality
-Looks/Style
-MPG/economy
-interior
-ease of use/driver accommodations
-Technology
-Performance
-Image/Panache
-Dealer Service
-etc etc etc
To say its just "value and reliablity" is not painting an accurate picture.
#19
Lexus Fanatic
The problem is, no matter how good the Phaeton actually was/is, or how good VW interiors are, people simply are NOT willing to pay a premium for a mass-market brand. In Europe people expect mass market cars to be upscale (they expect a lot in general from cars), but that is a different market.
And WHY did the public fail to understand it? Yes.........that old bugaboo, image. Image blinds a lot of car shoppers....it has for many years. That is why Korean cars continue to depreciate faster than Japanese cars, even though their quality is now comparable (or, in some cases, better). But the public, as a whole, is still hamstrung by 15 and 20-year-old images of Korean cars being junk.
Last edited by mmarshall; 08-18-09 at 11:53 AM.
#20
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
and i didn't say anyone will say it's a poor car.
i said people overlooked it plus it was poorly marketed and people just immediately say VW shouldn't bother trying, which i think is wrong.
just like some people are slamming hyundai for bringing out more luxurious vehicles, but what i really think is they don't like competition from some 'uppity' brand.
times change, brands improve, other brands falter. vw is an engineering and marketing powerhouse and MAJOR global player that isn't about to give up on the u.s. market. i don't know where a lot of their cars are made, but i suspect their biggest pricing problem is making a lot of cars in germany where labor costs and taxes are off the charts. i know they've made some vehicles in mexico, but don't know what if any of their current line is made outside germany.
when you say 'these things' i thought the resale on the diesel ones was pretty decent but could be wrong... anyway, again, things can change.
life is, or should be, about more than just money. if a vw, or whatever brand, will bring some enjoyment to a buyer, moreso than another 'more fiscally responsible' purchase, then maybe it's worth it to them.
i said people overlooked it plus it was poorly marketed and people just immediately say VW shouldn't bother trying, which i think is wrong.
just like some people are slamming hyundai for bringing out more luxurious vehicles, but what i really think is they don't like competition from some 'uppity' brand.
Hell its shares a platform with Bentleys. That said hardly anyone wants a 30k VW, let alone a 40k, 50k 60k, 80k one.
The resale value of these things is only matched by the RL and maybe Q45 for being just dismal but it gives a 2nd/3rd owner a lot of car for the money.
And plenty of us can afford it, but most of us are sharp enough to make a more fiscally responsible purchase decision when selecting a premium car.
#21
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
I respect your opinion, but I think you fail to see the point. With the Phaeton, even at 80-90K, you're NOT paying a premium, when you look at what comparable BMWs and Mercedes cost with big V8s and V12's. THAT's what the American public simply failed to understand when the Phaeton was here last time. Sure, 90K is a lot of money, but it sure beats the 120-150K that BMW and Mercedes V12 models cost.....and more than that, for top-end AMG's.
And WHY did the public fail to understand it? Yes.........that old bugaboo, image. Image blinds a lot of car shoppers....it has for many years. That is why Korean cars continue to depreciate faster than Japanese cars, even though their quality is now comparable (or, in some cases, better). But the public, as a whole, is still hamstrung by 15 and 20-year-old images of Korean cars being junk.
And WHY did the public fail to understand it? Yes.........that old bugaboo, image. Image blinds a lot of car shoppers....it has for many years. That is why Korean cars continue to depreciate faster than Japanese cars, even though their quality is now comparable (or, in some cases, better). But the public, as a whole, is still hamstrung by 15 and 20-year-old images of Korean cars being junk.
#22
Lexus Fanatic
But fiscal responsibility is one reason the rich keep getting richer and the poor keep getting poorer.
#23
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Damn multi Quote bit take a minute to see prices on Autotrader, you may buy one
I don't see VWs image changing. If anything they are going to change for the American market, as they are building a new plant in TN to make cars tuned to our tastes. IMO no matter how well marketed I don't see people buying it over a LS/7/S class, even in these economic times. Maybe it would be smart to have low sales goals.
The other problem was not every dealer could fix it! They had to fly special techs in as most places were not equipped to handle the VW. WIth a 7/LS/S this is not an issue, you simply take your car in for service and get it back.
Wow 52 for sale, the low price is 18 grand!!! The high price is 38 grand!!
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/search..._type=priceASC
I don't see VWs image changing. If anything they are going to change for the American market, as they are building a new plant in TN to make cars tuned to our tastes. IMO no matter how well marketed I don't see people buying it over a LS/7/S class, even in these economic times. Maybe it would be smart to have low sales goals.
The other problem was not every dealer could fix it! They had to fly special techs in as most places were not equipped to handle the VW. WIth a 7/LS/S this is not an issue, you simply take your car in for service and get it back.
Wow 52 for sale, the low price is 18 grand!!! The high price is 38 grand!!
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/search..._type=priceASC
#24
Lexus Fanatic
Check again, the evidence shows people buy Lexus for a multitude of factors.
-Features
-Value
-Luxury
-Quality
-Looks/Style
-MPG/economy
-interior
-ease of use/driver accommodations
-Technology
-Performance
-Image/Panache
-Dealer Service
-etc etc etc
To say its just "value and reliablity" is not painting an accurate picture.
#25
Lexus Test Driver
I don't agree with the comments about the A8 necessarily having a better interior...the A8's, yes, is nice, but the Phaeton's was fit for a queen. It was noticeably more plush in sheer opulence.......especially the extensive wood paneling. The A8 is also too firm in its ride/handling compromise for the typical Phaeton buyer, who wants a smoother, more plush, luxury-car ride. And, with the Phaeton, where else could you get a 12-cylinder Autobahn cruiser flagship for 90K? Certainly not at BMW and Mercedes.
The American public, several years ago, was dumb to overlook this car like they did. Now, fortunately, they may get a second chance. If I was in the market for a 12-cylinder cruiser (which, of course, I'm not), it would probably be the first car I looked at....despite VW's record of poor electronics.
The American public, several years ago, was dumb to overlook this car like they did. Now, fortunately, they may get a second chance. If I was in the market for a 12-cylinder cruiser (which, of course, I'm not), it would probably be the first car I looked at....despite VW's record of poor electronics.
I guess the Phaeton just doesn't excite me as much when I could have something different like an S600 or a 7-Series, although I'd have to buy used, which I'm perfectly comfortable with.
For me, it's a matter of personal preference and opinion. I do respect your opinions and you are right for the most part. Actually, if I was in the market for a large, luxury sedan right now I would consider a Phaeton considering the resale values make it an extremely attractive used buy, but there are never any around here and frankly I'm too lazy to go anywhere far to buy one.
#26
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Overseas, the LC achieves amazing sales because in certain overseas markets people ARE willing to pay a premium for a mass-market brand vehicle.
I respect your opinion, but I think you fail to see the point. With the Phaeton, even at 80-90K, you're NOT paying a premium, when you look at what comparable BMWs and Mercedes cost with big V8s and V12's. THAT's what the American public simply failed to understand when the Phaeton was here last time. Sure, 90K is a lot of money, but it sure beats the 120-150K that BMW and Mercedes V12 models cost.....and more than that, for top-end AMG's.
And WHY did the public fail to understand it? Yes.........that old bugaboo, image. Image blinds a lot of car shoppers....it has for many years. That is why Korean cars continue to depreciate faster than Japanese cars, even though their quality is now comparable (or, in some cases, better). But the public, as a whole, is still hamstrung by 15 and 20-year-old images of Korean cars being junk.
And WHY did the public fail to understand it? Yes.........that old bugaboo, image. Image blinds a lot of car shoppers....it has for many years. That is why Korean cars continue to depreciate faster than Japanese cars, even though their quality is now comparable (or, in some cases, better). But the public, as a whole, is still hamstrung by 15 and 20-year-old images of Korean cars being junk.
You are correct and you prove my point. People in North America are so concerned about *image*, and THAT is why they will NOT pay a premium for a mass-market vehicle, where as in Europe people will.
North Americans have no problem paying huge amounts for a luxury vehicle, because it "makes sense" to them image-wise.
#27
Lexus Fanatic
I *DO* see the point of the Phaeton, however people in North America DO NOT.
You are correct and you prove my point. People in North America are so concerned about *image*, and THAT is why they will NOT pay a premium for a mass-market vehicle, where as in Europe people will.
North Americans have no problem paying huge amounts for a luxury vehicle, because it "makes sense" to them image-wise.
#28
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You still don't see my point. It's not a question of whether Americans will pay a "premium" for a Phaeton or not. 90K for a Phaeton, though a lot of money, is simply NOT a premium, period. It is many thousands of $$$$$ less than what comparable BMW and Mercedes vehicles cost. Financially, that is actually a big discount.
#29
Lexus Fanatic
To further clarify, it is a premium price for the VW brand not for the Phaeton itself. Yes, for what you get the Phaeton is actually a good value. In the eyes of North American consumers, they are NOT willing to pay a premium (high price) for a mass market brand vehicle, no matter HOW good the vehicle is.
OK. I at least partially see where you are coming from. I think we're just looking at the same deal here from two different angles.
Another test for the American public, though, along those lines, will be when the 55-60K Hyundai Equus goes on sale here. We'll see if the public will spring that kind of money for a Hyundai-badged vehicle. Hyundai, though, despite its bad start here, now has a reputation for better quality than VW.
So far, though, they seem to be buying up the 40K Genesis sedan.
#30
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While I can appreciate the Phaeton I am not going to lie and say it being a VW doesn't sway me. VW to me means Beetle, even with nicer products. My experience with VW dealerships has been dismal. I don't see the VW as BETTER than the S/7/LS/ or its brother the A8. I see it as equal/worse so any "value" is lost to me.
I mean people don't buy expensive Lincolns, A8s, XJs, Acuras, Infiniti's, Saabs, Volvos, what makes VW think they will be successful? It goes against all logic.
I mean people don't buy expensive Lincolns, A8s, XJs, Acuras, Infiniti's, Saabs, Volvos, what makes VW think they will be successful? It goes against all logic.