M/T Top Ten Driving Cars
08-22-09, 07:58 AM
#31
Lexus Fanatic
I got to stop these type of misleading comments.
Had a buddy who is a 6'4" guy get in the car, he was amazed how spacious it was inside.
Its not an everyday car although I know owners who do use theirs as daily drivers. The extra work it takes to get in and out reminds one of the different type of car they are about to drive.
the person who is 6'6" pictured in the previous post claims he can get in and out nearly as well as this smaller guy. Its all technique.
Had a buddy who is a 6'4" guy get in the car, he was amazed how spacious it was inside.
Its not an everyday car although I know owners who do use theirs as daily drivers. The extra work it takes to get in and out reminds one of the different type of car they are about to drive.
the person who is 6'6" pictured in the previous post claims he can get in and out nearly as well as this smaller guy. Its all technique.
And I am somewhat older than a lot of you guys, and not as lithe, so it's harder for me to bend myself into a pretzel.
BTW.....I like this picture you posted. It shows just how low and small this car really is. Although he may be a couple of inches taller than me, that's about what I looked like standing next to it.
(The Lotus salesman, BTW, who sells these cars for a living, didn't think I could actually get in.........he said the car was simply too small for me).
Last edited by mmarshall; 08-22-09 at 08:03 AM.
08-22-09, 08:14 AM
#32
Lexus Fanatic
Mid engined cars want to rotate and perhaps this is what your feeing. Driving my Elise and other friend's Mid Engined cars on the straights or Interstate I would not call this trait darty or unstable. Actually its the effect of the car providing feedback to the driver as to what exactly the car is doing and not muted like other cars. It is the car following what the road gives it and it's providing driver feedback. Drive a car at speed and one appreciates this trait.
I beg to differ that a P car like the Boxster is designed for higher speeds than the venerable MR2.
I've driven both MR2s and lower-end Porsches (though I haven't had a chance to drive some of the super-expensive, high-end ones). Porsches, to me, felt a little more solidly planted on the road, especially after they made the chassis, suspension, steering, and tire improvements that took out the classic drop-thrttle oversteer on sharp curves.
I think the MR2/ Miata can be in the list.
08-22-09, 08:19 AM
#33
Lexus Fanatic
Not necessarily the best "bang" for the buck if you consider "bang" to be HP/Torque. You can get a big-engined, high-torque ponycar for more or less the same money. But the Miata definitely IS one of the best-handling cars for the buck, and has one of the simplest, easiest-to-use manual convertible tops ever designed. Sitting down the drivers' seat, I have, with just my right arm alone, put it up (or down) in about 3 seconds. Many people can do it in 5 or less.
08-22-09, 10:23 AM
#34
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OK, perhaps I could have used another term. What I meant by "unstable" was that I've found that, on a straight road, MR2s tend to not want to stay centered in their lane. That's because there is very little weight over the front steering wheels for traction, and the car itself, unlike somewhat heavier rear-engined, Porsches, is very light.
I've driven both MR2s and lower-end Porsches (though I haven't had a chance to drive some of the super-expensive, high-end ones). Porsches, to me, felt a little more solidly planted on the road, especially after they made the chassis, suspension, steering, and tire improvements that took out the classic drop-thrttle oversteer on sharp curves.
Yes. We have already discussed the Miata. I would definitely put it on the list. And I strongly prefer the Miata's steering/handling to the MR2.
I've driven both MR2s and lower-end Porsches (though I haven't had a chance to drive some of the super-expensive, high-end ones). Porsches, to me, felt a little more solidly planted on the road, especially after they made the chassis, suspension, steering, and tire improvements that took out the classic drop-thrttle oversteer on sharp curves.
Yes. We have already discussed the Miata. I would definitely put it on the list. And I strongly prefer the Miata's steering/handling to the MR2.
The front end on the Elise and MR2 is very very light. This winds up to be a car with a 50/50 balance when under heavy braking since the weight shifts to the front, thus setting the car up for corner entry with a neutral to oversteer feeling. On the straights the driver maintains the car on target. Traits of a "driver's car" IMHO.
A car that feels stable does not want to rotate, it has built in understeer. Most manufacturers set up a car this way out of the factory. At the limit I rather have a car with oversteer than understeer. At race speed on the track I can have the rear end come around and help me make a corner and hit the late apex, its easier than a car that understeers. YMMV.
To each his own, I say drive the cars back to back. You'll know if its for you once you take a test drive.
Last edited by goelise; 08-22-09 at 10:45 AM.
08-22-09, 11:06 AM
#35
Lexus Fanatic
Originally Posted by goelise
A lot of beginners to Mid Engined cars say this, it is because the car has a natural tendency to rotate and therefore feels 'twitchy'. Once a person is trained to have the mindset that mid engined car wants to rotate, it does not feel 'planted' all the time and embrace this, the car is a treat to drive. That back end does want to come around and during a race I use this to my advantage. There is a rule Lotus owners say to someone new to the car: "Never Lift" - maintaining or applying more throttle is desired while cornering to avoid that classic snap oversteer.
A car that feels stable does not want to rotate, it has built in understeer. Most manufacturers set up a car this way out of the factory. At the limit I rather have a car with oversteer than understeer. At race speed on the track I can have the rear end come around and help me make a corner and hit the late apex, its easier than a car that understeers.
08-22-09, 07:15 PM
#36
Lexus Fanatic
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it's never happened to me and i typically leave everything way behind from a light. 
sure it's no 5 second 0-60 car, but a car that fast or faster is kinda like a 30 second roller coaster - it's exhilarating but then you think "now what?"
i drove someone's 911 turbo convertible on the same roads i normally drive on, and it's so ridiculously fast you get the 'now what' very quickly and all the time - it'll do over 100 in third gear
so unless i want tickets constantly, what really is the point? i honestly don't believe i'd have any more fun in that 911 than i do in my miata. of course the 911 is an AMAZING car, but you can't use hardly any of its potential at less than twice the speed limit.
sure it's no 5 second 0-60 car, but a car that fast or faster is kinda like a 30 second roller coaster - it's exhilarating but then you think "now what?"i drove someone's 911 turbo convertible on the same roads i normally drive on, and it's so ridiculously fast you get the 'now what' very quickly and all the time - it'll do over 100 in third gear
so unless i want tickets constantly, what really is the point? i honestly don't believe i'd have any more fun in that 911 than i do in my miata. of course the 911 is an AMAZING car, but you can't use hardly any of its potential at less than twice the speed limit.
08-23-09, 06:02 PM
#37
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Yes, what you say is correct......when it comes to cornering, and for track use. Trying to drive arrow-straight down an Interstate, especially in a crosswind, is another matter. That's why small mid-engine cars are not good for long trips on the Interstates.
That's why stability systems were invented.....to take the bite out of both undeersteer and oversteer.
That's why stability systems were invented.....to take the bite out of both undeersteer and oversteer.
Track use is the first purpose. Some owners, myself included know this and expect long trips to be of the sporty nature. Crosswinds tend to affect just about any vehicle out there. Front engined, mid engined, rear engined does not matter. As for stability systems and other do dads:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THgeRlhVs0Y
Less is more for some.
Last edited by goelise; 08-23-09 at 06:08 PM.
08-23-09, 09:29 PM
#38
The Elise (and presumably the Exige) is simply too small a car for even an average American-sized adult. It is almost impossible to get in and out of one. I am 6' 2"", 265 lb. (somewhat larger than average), and you should have seen me trying to shoehorn myself into a tiny Elise when I reviewed one in August of '07. The salesman laughed, and didn't think I could do it. It took me some time, and some pretzel-like gyrations, but I did......and I even managed to drive it. (Don't even ask me how I got OUT) But I would never consider buying one.
But I would never consider buying one.
08-23-09, 09:41 PM
#39
Lexus Fanatic
Its the practical side in the end that will dictate to what you will actually drive in most cases. Many of us like Lamborghinis and Ferraris but will not be able to afford cars like this or will not be able to fit comfortably in a car like that as a daily driver
08-23-09, 09:41 PM
#40
Yes, mid-engined cars can be a blast in the twisties, but, on a straight road or Interstate, their lightness on the front end and engine weight back behind the driver can make them a little darty in the steering and unstable in the tracking department. A number of Toyota MR2's I've tried, for example, tend to wander left and right on a straight road, particularly in crosswinds. You're constantly twitching the steering wheel while trying to stay in the center of the lane. The Porsche Boxster shows a little of this, but not as much, as it is designed for generally higher speeds than an MR2.
08-23-09, 10:00 PM
#41
Lexus Fanatic
For the most balanced handling feel I still prefer the tradition FR layout. I agree that Mid engined cars are a little more of a handful at the limit. twitchy is the best way to describe them above 8/10 ths
08-25-09, 03:53 PM
#42
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If I wanted to be comfortable I would drive one of my other cars.
I like it that it does not meet a lot of "daily driver" requirements since this keeps the car exclusive, you won't see this car on every corner. Most owners buy the car seeking something different and special both in driving experience and looks.
Last edited by goelise; 08-25-09 at 03:58 PM.
08-25-09, 04:44 PM
#43
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But that has nothing to do with Elise being an amazing car.
08-25-09, 05:46 PM
#44
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Thanks! Its a very fun car to drive. The handling is everything I was looking for.
