1SICKBLOG: The RX 450h and 30MPG, unappreciated and what ever vehicle should offer
08-24-09, 09:47 AM
#31
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One would also think that it wouldn't be too difficult to install the 3.3L, 3.5L setup into the ES, given there is already a Camry hybrid. But, I'm a social scientist not an engineer.
08-24-09, 10:07 AM
#33
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Also, a hybrid has MORE torque than a diesel as the electric motors produce countless torque immediately, thus the odd power ratings. You might want to read up on that.
08-24-09, 10:10 AM
#34
executive matchup
great article, 1sicklex! the mpg on the RX450h is superb! if this was our old odyssey, we would have filled up 3 times already, and our RX450h is still on the first tank from the dealer! 
currently down to quarter tank, and still have over 100 KM before fill up. currently averaging (if memory serves me correctly) 8.4L/100 KM (my wife doesn't bother trying to stay within the eco gas saving band range , but i try whenever i get behind the wheel).
no problems with the battery discharged. in fact, traction battery has remain full at or above 95%, unlike my GS450h where the traction battery can fluctuate wildly within minutes of driving - but i digress, the GS450h hybrid is a totally different system than the RX450h).
don't forget also that the RX450h has a "EV mode" or electric only mode (gas engine shut off). i believe the cruising distance is around 32-35 miles or km (not sure which).
hybrid technology has come a long way since its first introduction with the toyota prius 10 years ago. it is a mature technology, and it works. 100% happy with the performance, fuel efficiency of hybrid vehicles, regardless of what people say about cost of vehicle, savings payback, (enter derogatory comment here), etc. i'm a true believer of hybrid tech, and my garage proves it.
currently down to quarter tank, and still have over 100 KM before fill up. currently averaging (if memory serves me correctly) 8.4L/100 KM (my wife doesn't bother trying to stay within the eco gas saving band range , but i try whenever i get behind the wheel).Well recall that the 400 and 450h don't utilize a rear drive shaft. An electric motor is the only drive of the rear wheels. Thus, given the rigorous testing of the EPA city fuel eco. test, I would assume that the rear electric motor sucks enough power from the battery, along with the front, that the ICE has to come on to provide some charge to the battery, hence the 2 MPG penalty. Though I could be wrong. I don't know how much braking is involved during the test to recharge the battery, without the use of the ICE.
don't forget also that the RX450h has a "EV mode" or electric only mode (gas engine shut off). i believe the cruising distance is around 32-35 miles or km (not sure which).
hybrid technology has come a long way since its first introduction with the toyota prius 10 years ago. it is a mature technology, and it works. 100% happy with the performance, fuel efficiency of hybrid vehicles, regardless of what people say about cost of vehicle, savings payback, (enter derogatory comment here), etc. i'm a true believer of hybrid tech, and my garage proves it.
08-24-09, 10:15 AM
#35
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Mmm, I'd like to try the EV mode. Not sure If we need it though. Was in stop and go traffic the other day with a trailer on the back. Ran all electric just like it would without towing 3,000 lbs of cargo.
As listed, the diesels on the market use more foreign oil than the hybrids available. So if thats your goal with an alternative fuel vehicle then I guess you are Mr. Black.
As listed, the diesels on the market use more foreign oil than the hybrids available. So if thats your goal with an alternative fuel vehicle then I guess you are Mr. Black.
08-24-09, 10:20 AM
#37
Also, a hybrid has MORE torque than a diesel as the electric motors produce countless torque immediately, thus the odd power ratings. You might want to read up on that.
and the like...
08-24-09, 10:26 AM
#38
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Let me clarify before you run away with things.. Diesel vehicles can run on biodiesels and need not be dependent on foreign oil. The same can't be said for hybrids at this time.
I've already did.. I'll take the 425 ft/lb of torque available from the X5 35D http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Conte...#intro/landing
and the like...
I've already did.. I'll take the 425 ft/lb of torque available from the X5 35D http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Conte...#intro/landing
and the like...
Nothing to clarify, nothing to run away with, we are talking about MPG and you are in here talking about torque from diesels and you are acting like diesels run on Unicorn sweat on not on foreign oil. Where do you get this stuff from?
08-24-09, 10:30 AM
#40
executive matchup
i believe dashocker is an anti-hybrid type of person. i recall reading one of his comments somewhere to that effect. he will not accept the positive things that hybrids bring to the table. 
08-24-09, 10:42 AM
#43
I could argue against all 3 points.
1. Weight. Hybrids and diesels both carry a weight penalty. Hybrids have heavy batteries. A diesel has a heavier engine block than a gasoline engine. Thus the suspension must be fortified, adding weight. Torque: Diesels have alot of it. Hybrids do to. I'd estimate that the advantage of a diesel comes in when towing heavy loads of 3000 lbs. or more, depending on the vehicle in question.
2. Cost. Existing diesels don't cut it in the States. They can't simply be sold here without measures made to meet emissions standards. This translates to R & D costs. Furthermore, the ML and X5 require urea injections to meet emissions. I believe that BMW has it covered in their 4 year maint. program. After that the consumer pays to have the tank refilled. If the tank runs dry, you have a certain of starts before the engine locks you out.
3. Price. The prices speak for themselves. Base prices for luxury alt. fuel SUVs:
RXh: $41,660 (32/28 MPG)
ML 320 CDI: $48,600 (18/24 MPG)
X5d: $51,200 (18/25)
The RX is the cheapest by far, while offering the best fuel economy. I disagree that Lexus buyers don't spend $60k on the RX. It should be noted that $55k was as high as I could get the build price on the Lexus website. The RX has had the title of no. 1 selling Luxury utilility vehicle for sometime. I think there are plenty of buyers willing to spend $55K.
1. Weight. Hybrids and diesels both carry a weight penalty. Hybrids have heavy batteries. A diesel has a heavier engine block than a gasoline engine. Thus the suspension must be fortified, adding weight. Torque: Diesels have alot of it. Hybrids do to. I'd estimate that the advantage of a diesel comes in when towing heavy loads of 3000 lbs. or more, depending on the vehicle in question.
2. Cost. Existing diesels don't cut it in the States. They can't simply be sold here without measures made to meet emissions standards. This translates to R & D costs. Furthermore, the ML and X5 require urea injections to meet emissions. I believe that BMW has it covered in their 4 year maint. program. After that the consumer pays to have the tank refilled. If the tank runs dry, you have a certain of starts before the engine locks you out.
3. Price. The prices speak for themselves. Base prices for luxury alt. fuel SUVs:
RXh: $41,660 (32/28 MPG)
ML 320 CDI: $48,600 (18/24 MPG)
X5d: $51,200 (18/25)
The RX is the cheapest by far, while offering the best fuel economy. I disagree that Lexus buyers don't spend $60k on the RX. It should be noted that $55k was as high as I could get the build price on the Lexus website. The RX has had the title of no. 1 selling Luxury utilility vehicle for sometime. I think there are plenty of buyers willing to spend $55K.
2) a hybrid don't offer much advantage on the freeway. This is where diesel is a better option. The U.S. has been playing catch up on the quality of diesel fuel (high sulfur) and has higher particulate standards relative to Europe. The urea trap is a PITA but I would still take a diesel over a hybrid for the same money.
3) Those base prices you quote are for 2nd gen models. Try to sell the ML or the x5 at those prices without incentives or discounts. The base price of a 3.0i x5 was 39.9K at launch in 2001. The base price of the rx300 was 35K or 37K. The 2nd generation are markedly more expensive and launched around the start of the recession. I don't think you can say these prices are winners given people have less money, lease rates are up and disposable income / asset values are down
08-24-09, 10:48 AM
#44
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1) How much weight are you talking about? Is it material to a SUV with 4000+ curb weights?
2) a hybrid don't offer much advantage on the freeway. This is where diesel is a better option. The U.S. has been playing catch up on the quality of diesel fuel (high sulfur) and has higher particulate standards relative to Europe. The urea trap is a PITA but I would still take a diesel over a hybrid for the same money.
3) Those base prices you quote are for 2nd gen models. Try to sell the ML or the x5 at those prices without incentives or discounts. The base price of a 3.0i x5 was 39.9K at launch in 2001. The base price of the rx300 was 35K or 37K. The 2nd generation are markedly more expensive and launched around the start of the recession. I don't think you can say these prices are winners given people have less money, lease rates are up and disposable income / asset values are down
2) a hybrid don't offer much advantage on the freeway. This is where diesel is a better option. The U.S. has been playing catch up on the quality of diesel fuel (high sulfur) and has higher particulate standards relative to Europe. The urea trap is a PITA but I would still take a diesel over a hybrid for the same money.
3) Those base prices you quote are for 2nd gen models. Try to sell the ML or the x5 at those prices without incentives or discounts. The base price of a 3.0i x5 was 39.9K at launch in 2001. The base price of the rx300 was 35K or 37K. The 2nd generation are markedly more expensive and launched around the start of the recession. I don't think you can say these prices are winners given people have less money, lease rates are up and disposable income / asset values are down
Lets hope America gets more diesel options from the Germans.
08-24-09, 10:58 AM
#45
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1) How much weight are you talking about? Is it material to a SUV with 4000+ curb weights?
2) a hybrid don't offer much advantage on the freeway. This is where diesel is a better option. The U.S. has been playing catch up on the quality of diesel fuel (high sulfur) and has higher particulate standards relative to Europe. The urea trap is a PITA but I would still take a diesel over a hybrid for the same money.
3) Those base prices you quote are for 2nd gen models. Try to sell the ML or the x5 at those prices without incentives or discounts. The base price of a 3.0i x5 was 39.9K at launch in 2001. The base price of the rx300 was 35K or 37K. The 2nd generation are markedly more expensive and launched around the start of the recession. I don't think you can say these prices are winners given people have less money, lease rates are up and disposable income / asset values are down
2) a hybrid don't offer much advantage on the freeway. This is where diesel is a better option. The U.S. has been playing catch up on the quality of diesel fuel (high sulfur) and has higher particulate standards relative to Europe. The urea trap is a PITA but I would still take a diesel over a hybrid for the same money.
3) Those base prices you quote are for 2nd gen models. Try to sell the ML or the x5 at those prices without incentives or discounts. The base price of a 3.0i x5 was 39.9K at launch in 2001. The base price of the rx300 was 35K or 37K. The 2nd generation are markedly more expensive and launched around the start of the recession. I don't think you can say these prices are winners given people have less money, lease rates are up and disposable income / asset values are down
2. How do you figure? Hybrids are a logical choice for highway driving. The RX has a 4 MPG advantage over its non hybrid counterpart. Compare that to the X5d which also has a 4 MPG advantage over its gasoline counterpart. People often forget that highways also have accidents and construction. Thus if you have to slow down or are in stop and go traffic, a hybrid is a considerably better choice than a diesel.
Furthermore you said, "The urea trap is a PITA but I would still take a diesel over a hybrid for the same money." The fact is that hybrid SUVs aren't for the same money. As I posted, they are drastically less in price, not to mention the price of gasoline is less expensive than diesel, further increasing the savings margin of a hybrid.
The U.S. has a higher standard for diesels, hence the urea systems and the fact that foreign diesel automakers cannot simply bring over a diesel and expect it to meet U.S. emissions standards. Even with low sulfur fuels.
3. I'm not sure you understand what a base price is. The prices are listed are the starting price, so before any options or fees are added, of the 450h, X5d, and ML 320 currently on sale today. Generations have nothing to do with it. It's what it on the market right now.
Don't get me wrong, diesels have their place. But the models available right now are very expensive in comparisson to other alternative fuel vehicles. Not to mention the price of diesel is back on the rise.