View Poll Results: Which do you prefer?
The 3.0 tt from BMW
15
16.30%
The 3.0 tt from Toyota
64
69.57%
I like both and can't chose one over the other
5
5.43%
Hybrids ftw!!
8
8.70%
Voters: 92. You may not vote on this poll
1SICKBLOG: Toyota Supra 3.0 TT 320hp in 1993 19 MPG. BMW 3.0 TT 300hp in 2009 20 MPG
08-30-09, 04:46 PM
#1
Guest
Posts: n/a
1SICKBLOG: Toyota Supra 3.0 TT 320hp in 1993 19 MPG. BMW 3.0 TT 300hp in 2009 20 MPG
Let me start by saying this is not a BMW 335 bash thread. We have given much kudos to BMW for offering a great turbo in a entry level luxury vehicle and one that can be modded. We are all aware you can "chip" it to 400hp and higher etc. There are quite a few members on here with the vehicle and it is a wonderful car.
I said it in a thread before but I really have to ask what is the big deal in regards to the engine? Toyota had 320hp in an I-6tt in the Supra (and the GS in Japan we didn't get) well, back in 1992 as a 1993 model.
That is over 16 years ago.
Like the 335, the Supra can be "chipped" but they call it BPU, "Basic Performance mods" where you don't lose the twins and make close to 400hp TO THE WHEELS with about 2 grand. (Supra owners/experts please chime in)
Now clearly the 335 has amenities and backseat the Supra could only dream of. It also offers sedan, convert and AWD models. The Supra was Toyotas stand alone flagship coupe. I could compare to the Toyota Aristo V300 but I simply don't know much about that car (if you do, please chime in). Surely the same mods, if not more could be done.
Both cars have 0-60 times close to one another and the Supra is clearly more of the track car. Not really going into a VS overall here, just the engine. The 2JZ has become a legend for being pretty much indestructible and if you go SINGLE turbo, there is pretty much no limit to power, just your wallet and how much you want to spend.
While the IS 350 performance is on par/close to the 335, you simply cannot easily modify the engine like you can the TT I-6. Toyota went after a clean running vehicle and MPG here and dropped the 2JZ. Which brings me to my next point that the much NEWER BMW gets 20 MPG average and the Supra gets 19 (auto) or 18 (manual) MPG. Not bad for a much older engine. To the BMWs credit it gets 26 MPG on the Highway.
We have seen IS 300s with a turbo 2JZ and even in mild applications, the car is a beast to drive with it. I do wish somewhat the IS still offered this engine and I wish the IS had the turbo 2JZ as an option instead of owners having to turbo it themselves.
Seems Toyota/Lexus missed an opportunity to offer the turbo in other vehicles like it did in Japan. A turbo IS from the factory would be awesome. BMW to its credit did just that in the 3 and 5 series and other vehicles with this engine.
Which is awesome. But whats the big deal, its so 1993!
I said it in a thread before but I really have to ask what is the big deal in regards to the engine? Toyota had 320hp in an I-6tt in the Supra (and the GS in Japan we didn't get) well, back in 1992 as a 1993 model.
That is over 16 years ago.
Like the 335, the Supra can be "chipped" but they call it BPU, "Basic Performance mods" where you don't lose the twins and make close to 400hp TO THE WHEELS with about 2 grand. (Supra owners/experts please chime in)
Now clearly the 335 has amenities and backseat the Supra could only dream of. It also offers sedan, convert and AWD models. The Supra was Toyotas stand alone flagship coupe. I could compare to the Toyota Aristo V300 but I simply don't know much about that car (if you do, please chime in). Surely the same mods, if not more could be done.
Both cars have 0-60 times close to one another and the Supra is clearly more of the track car. Not really going into a VS overall here, just the engine. The 2JZ has become a legend for being pretty much indestructible and if you go SINGLE turbo, there is pretty much no limit to power, just your wallet and how much you want to spend.
While the IS 350 performance is on par/close to the 335, you simply cannot easily modify the engine like you can the TT I-6. Toyota went after a clean running vehicle and MPG here and dropped the 2JZ. Which brings me to my next point that the much NEWER BMW gets 20 MPG average and the Supra gets 19 (auto) or 18 (manual) MPG. Not bad for a much older engine. To the BMWs credit it gets 26 MPG on the Highway.
We have seen IS 300s with a turbo 2JZ and even in mild applications, the car is a beast to drive with it. I do wish somewhat the IS still offered this engine and I wish the IS had the turbo 2JZ as an option instead of owners having to turbo it themselves.
Seems Toyota/Lexus missed an opportunity to offer the turbo in other vehicles like it did in Japan. A turbo IS from the factory would be awesome. BMW to its credit did just that in the 3 and 5 series and other vehicles with this engine.
Which is awesome. But whats the big deal, its so 1993!
08-30-09, 05:10 PM
#3
Intermediate
Let me start by saying this is not a BMW 335 bash thread. We have given much kudos to BMW for offering a great turbo in a entry level luxury vehicle and one that can be modded. We are all aware you can "chip" it to 400hp and higher etc. There are quite a few members on here with the vehicle and it is a wonderful car.
I said it in a thread before but I really have to ask what is the big deal in regards to the engine? Toyota had 320hp in an I-6tt in the Supra (and the GS in Japan we didn't get) well, back in 1992 as a 1993 model.
That is over 16 years ago.
Like the 335, the Supra can be "chipped" but they call it BPU, "Basic Performance mods" where you don't lose the twins and make close to 400hp TO THE WHEELS with about 2 grand. (Supra owners/experts please chime in)
Now clearly the 335 has amenities and backseat the Supra could only dream of. It also offers sedan, convert and AWD models. The Supra was Toyotas stand alone flagship coupe. I could compare to the Toyota Aristo V300 but I simply don't know much about that car (if you do, please chime in). Surely the same mods, if not more could be done.
Both cars have 0-60 times close to one another and the Supra is clearly more of the track car. Not really going into a VS overall here, just the engine. The 2JZ has become a legend for being pretty much indestructible and if you go SINGLE turbo, there is pretty much no limit to power, just your wallet and how much you want to spend.
While the IS 350 performance is on par/close to the 335, you simply cannot easily modify the engine like you can the TT I-6. Toyota went after a clean running vehicle and MPG here and dropped the 2JZ. Which brings me to my next point that the much NEWER BMW gets 20 MPG average and the Supra gets 19 (auto) or 18 (manual) MPG. Not bad for a much older engine. To the BMWs credit it gets 26 MPG on the Highway.
We have seen IS 300s with a turbo 2JZ and even in mild applications, the car is a beast to drive with it. I do wish somewhat the IS still offered this engine and I wish the IS had the turbo 2JZ as an option instead of owners having to turbo it themselves.
Seems Toyota/Lexus missed an opportunity to offer the turbo in other vehicles like it did in Japan. A turbo IS from the factory would be awesome. BMW to its credit did just that in the 3 and 5 series and other vehicles with this engine.
Which is awesome. But whats the big deal, its so 1993!
I said it in a thread before but I really have to ask what is the big deal in regards to the engine? Toyota had 320hp in an I-6tt in the Supra (and the GS in Japan we didn't get) well, back in 1992 as a 1993 model.
That is over 16 years ago.
Like the 335, the Supra can be "chipped" but they call it BPU, "Basic Performance mods" where you don't lose the twins and make close to 400hp TO THE WHEELS with about 2 grand. (Supra owners/experts please chime in)
Now clearly the 335 has amenities and backseat the Supra could only dream of. It also offers sedan, convert and AWD models. The Supra was Toyotas stand alone flagship coupe. I could compare to the Toyota Aristo V300 but I simply don't know much about that car (if you do, please chime in). Surely the same mods, if not more could be done.
Both cars have 0-60 times close to one another and the Supra is clearly more of the track car. Not really going into a VS overall here, just the engine. The 2JZ has become a legend for being pretty much indestructible and if you go SINGLE turbo, there is pretty much no limit to power, just your wallet and how much you want to spend.
While the IS 350 performance is on par/close to the 335, you simply cannot easily modify the engine like you can the TT I-6. Toyota went after a clean running vehicle and MPG here and dropped the 2JZ. Which brings me to my next point that the much NEWER BMW gets 20 MPG average and the Supra gets 19 (auto) or 18 (manual) MPG. Not bad for a much older engine. To the BMWs credit it gets 26 MPG on the Highway.
We have seen IS 300s with a turbo 2JZ and even in mild applications, the car is a beast to drive with it. I do wish somewhat the IS still offered this engine and I wish the IS had the turbo 2JZ as an option instead of owners having to turbo it themselves.
Seems Toyota/Lexus missed an opportunity to offer the turbo in other vehicles like it did in Japan. A turbo IS from the factory would be awesome. BMW to its credit did just that in the 3 and 5 series and other vehicles with this engine.
Which is awesome. But whats the big deal, its so 1993!
08-30-09, 05:11 PM
#4
It is my stance that the Supras engine was purpose designed and built, while BMW's engine is a rush overclock job. The one I drove overheated during test drive. So since this thread is about the engine, I do think that Supra's engine is superior.
However BMW's turbo system is far more sophisticated and superior to the Supras, with almost no lag.
However BMW's turbo system is far more sophisticated and superior to the Supras, with almost no lag.
Last edited by Och; 08-30-09 at 06:04 PM.
08-30-09, 05:12 PM
#5
Pole Position
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Carson, California currently in Makati City, PI
Posts: 380
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_...281986-1992.29
The Supra was also available in two non-export models in Japan, the JZA70 with a 2.5 L 276 hp (206 kW) twin-turbo 1JZ-GTE, known as 2.5GT Twin Turbo (JZA70), and the GA70 with a 2.0 L 210 hp (157 kW) twin-turbo 1G-GTE and non turbo 1G-GEU .
A special version of the 1JZ-GTE equipped JZA70, the 2.5 Twin Turbo R, had black/gray Recaro seats, a Torsen differential, additional braces to mount the diff, Bilstein suspension and uprated springs, Momo wheel and gear **** and matching interior trim. This was the fastest factory production version of the Mk3 Supra, running a mid 14 second 1/4 mile. This model had no ABS and was the lightest of all the MK3 supras.
This motor was also offered in the Soarer (SC300), Chaser, Cressida
It's unfortunate that Toyota never bought this version to the States
The Supra was also available in two non-export models in Japan, the JZA70 with a 2.5 L 276 hp (206 kW) twin-turbo 1JZ-GTE, known as 2.5GT Twin Turbo (JZA70), and the GA70 with a 2.0 L 210 hp (157 kW) twin-turbo 1G-GTE and non turbo 1G-GEU .
A special version of the 1JZ-GTE equipped JZA70, the 2.5 Twin Turbo R, had black/gray Recaro seats, a Torsen differential, additional braces to mount the diff, Bilstein suspension and uprated springs, Momo wheel and gear **** and matching interior trim. This was the fastest factory production version of the Mk3 Supra, running a mid 14 second 1/4 mile. This model had no ABS and was the lightest of all the MK3 supras.
This motor was also offered in the Soarer (SC300), Chaser, Cressida
It's unfortunate that Toyota never bought this version to the States
Last edited by rsantiago; 08-30-09 at 05:20 PM.
08-30-09, 05:59 PM
#6
Tech Info Resource
iTrader: (2)
We're not talking about the JZA70 - Mike is talking about the JZA80. Lighter and with a vastly improved engine over the 7MG-GTE and the 1JZ-GTE. So, here's something only a few did - drill a hole in a VSV and instantly gain power. Add a Boost Cut Controller, and drill the hole bigger, gain more power. I put 330 to the wheels completely stock down to the air filter with just a BCC and a drilled VSV. Less than $100 and I had 388 at the crank. I still got 18 mpg city and 24 mpg highway on Cali fuel and 26 mpg on 49 state fuel.
Lots of things made the MkIV Supra great - a nearly indestructible Getrag 233 gearbox, the best brakes Motor Trend ever saw in a production car in 30 years of testing, and impeccable manners - starts under any weather conditions, no glitches, no problems, Toyota reliability AND the ability to make ridiculous power from a high nickel content cast iron block with oil jet cooled pistons. The only weak point IMHO was the cylinder head's port layout.
Supras are legendary on the street racing scene because they can beat sportbikes - even modded sportbikes - with a single turbo and upgraded fuel system. Granted they don't do this without some high octane fuel, but the number of cars import or domestic capable of taking down a turbo Hayabusa are few and far between.
Supras with nitrous and OEM twins were runnning 10's in 1997 - 1998. I haven't seen a 335 run 10's yet. Best of all, Dan Gurney drove a Supra and a Ferrari in an article and said it was difficult to say the Supra wasn't a supercar from a performance perspective.
Finally, hardtop Supras skidpad at 0.98g and stop from 60 in 109 feet. This is stratospheric for street cars even today, especially affordable street cars.
From a personal perspective - I really like my IS-F, but I didn't even consider selling my hardtop '93 TT 6-speed Supra to buy it. It would have been a sad day had I needed to part with the Dawg.
Lots of things made the MkIV Supra great - a nearly indestructible Getrag 233 gearbox, the best brakes Motor Trend ever saw in a production car in 30 years of testing, and impeccable manners - starts under any weather conditions, no glitches, no problems, Toyota reliability AND the ability to make ridiculous power from a high nickel content cast iron block with oil jet cooled pistons. The only weak point IMHO was the cylinder head's port layout.
Supras are legendary on the street racing scene because they can beat sportbikes - even modded sportbikes - with a single turbo and upgraded fuel system. Granted they don't do this without some high octane fuel, but the number of cars import or domestic capable of taking down a turbo Hayabusa are few and far between.
Supras with nitrous and OEM twins were runnning 10's in 1997 - 1998. I haven't seen a 335 run 10's yet. Best of all, Dan Gurney drove a Supra and a Ferrari in an article and said it was difficult to say the Supra wasn't a supercar from a performance perspective.
Finally, hardtop Supras skidpad at 0.98g and stop from 60 in 109 feet. This is stratospheric for street cars even today, especially affordable street cars.
From a personal perspective - I really like my IS-F, but I didn't even consider selling my hardtop '93 TT 6-speed Supra to buy it. It would have been a sad day had I needed to part with the Dawg.
08-30-09, 06:11 PM
#7
Guest
Posts: n/a
If your comparing just the motors then I agree the I-6 in the 335 is no big deal. The 2jz made 320hp and is very tuner friendly. Ive seen various 2jz making 600,700,800 hp on stock internals which is really impressive. Im not a 335 expert so I cant say for sure but I dont think the motor take the abuse the 2jz can.
Trending Topics
08-30-09, 07:09 PM
#8
How come everyone always remembers and praises the Supra, but its closest competitor from the same era, the Nissan 300ZX, is almost never mentioned?
I personally dont know much about the 300ZX besides that it was also a 300hp+ 3.0L six cylinder with twin turbos - very similar setup to the Supra, and it was also an extremely good looking car.
I personally dont know much about the 300ZX besides that it was also a 300hp+ 3.0L six cylinder with twin turbos - very similar setup to the Supra, and it was also an extremely good looking car.
08-30-09, 07:21 PM
#9
Guest
Posts: n/a
How come everyone always remembers and praises the Supra, but its closest competitor from the same era, the Nissan 300ZX, is almost never mentioned?
I personally dont know much about the 300ZX besides that it was also a 300hp+ 3.0L six cylinder with twin turbos - very similar setup to the Supra, and it was also an extremely good looking car.
I personally dont know much about the 300ZX besides that it was also a 300hp+ 3.0L six cylinder with twin turbos - very similar setup to the Supra, and it was also an extremely good looking car.
08-30-09, 07:35 PM
#10
Lexus Champion
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: California
Posts: 1,832
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How come everyone always remembers and praises the Supra, but its closest competitor from the same era, the Nissan 300ZX, is almost never mentioned?
I personally dont know much about the 300ZX besides that it was also a 300hp+ 3.0L six cylinder with twin turbos - very similar setup to the Supra, and it was also an extremely good looking car.
I personally dont know much about the 300ZX besides that it was also a 300hp+ 3.0L six cylinder with twin turbos - very similar setup to the Supra, and it was also an extremely good looking car.
Go back to the topic, yes I agree 335i's engine is not that big of a deal. In fact, I don't consider BMW the best engine manufacturer in the world, at most one of the best. Toyota, Nissan, Honda, Mercedes-Benz, Porsche all capable of making what BMW is offering.
08-30-09, 07:47 PM
#11
F is for Fraud
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Québec
Posts: 1,174
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think it is well worth noting that the Supra was well ahead of its time in 1993. It featured exotic-like performance at a fraction of the price of an exotic. I'm inclined to believe that the TT Supra was a bit faster than a lot of Ferraris and Lamborghinis from those days.
Also, a Supra TT with a Getrag 6-speed was almost $60,000 back in 1993. That's a little less than $90,000 today.
As for the Supra TT being easily chipped, I beg to differ. When I asked Robin Almasi, a renowned tuner here in Montreal, about tuning my ECU, he basically told me: "Take your computer. Unplug it. Throw it out the window." Matter of factly, nothing at all can be done with the stock ECU so that $2,000 go-fast-quick thing is completely bull****, atleast on JDM Supras.
Also, a Supra TT with a Getrag 6-speed was almost $60,000 back in 1993. That's a little less than $90,000 today.
As for the Supra TT being easily chipped, I beg to differ. When I asked Robin Almasi, a renowned tuner here in Montreal, about tuning my ECU, he basically told me: "Take your computer. Unplug it. Throw it out the window." Matter of factly, nothing at all can be done with the stock ECU so that $2,000 go-fast-quick thing is completely bull****, atleast on JDM Supras.
08-30-09, 08:01 PM
#13
Intermediate
As for the Supra TT being easily chipped, I beg to differ. When I asked Robin Almasi, a renowned tuner here in Montreal, about tuning my ECU, he basically told me: "Take your computer. Unplug it. Throw it out the window." Matter of factly, nothing at all can be done with the stock ECU so that $2,000 go-fast-quick thing is completely bull****, atleast on JDM Supras.[/QUOTE]
Well it cant be chipped like BMW, Audi, VW etc, but there is a ton of aftermarket support for the car and I am pretty sure 2 grand can get you a BPU and well over 400HP, with just simple bolt-ons
Well it cant be chipped like BMW, Audi, VW etc, but there is a ton of aftermarket support for the car and I am pretty sure 2 grand can get you a BPU and well over 400HP, with just simple bolt-ons
08-30-09, 08:03 PM
#14
Tech Info Resource
iTrader: (2)
I think it is well worth noting that the Supra was well ahead of its time in 1993. It featured exotic-like performance at a fraction of the price of an exotic. I'm inclined to believe that the TT Supra was a bit faster than a lot of Ferraris and Lamborghinis from those days.
Also, a Supra TT with a Getrag 6-speed was almost $60,000 back in 1993. That's a little less than $90,000 today.
As for the Supra TT being easily chipped, I beg to differ. When I asked Robin Almasi, a renowned tuner here in Montreal, about tuning my ECU, he basically told me: "Take your computer. Unplug it. Throw it out the window." Matter of factly, nothing at all can be done with the stock ECU so that $2,000 go-fast-quick thing is completely bull****, atleast on JDM Supras.
Also, a Supra TT with a Getrag 6-speed was almost $60,000 back in 1993. That's a little less than $90,000 today.
As for the Supra TT being easily chipped, I beg to differ. When I asked Robin Almasi, a renowned tuner here in Montreal, about tuning my ECU, he basically told me: "Take your computer. Unplug it. Throw it out the window." Matter of factly, nothing at all can be done with the stock ECU so that $2,000 go-fast-quick thing is completely bull****, atleast on JDM Supras.
It didn't take $2k. With a BCC and a downpipe you could make nearly 400 at the wheel with decent fuel. The rest of the $2k was for a bigger exhaust to allow the OEM turbos to spool faster.
You might want to talk to another truly renowned tuner in Canada - Reg Reimer at RCTS in Calgary - about things you can and can't do with a Supra. Since he's raced them in One Lap twice (along with some other friends of mine) I'm sure he can give you some more accurate information.
08-30-09, 08:04 PM
#15
F is for Fraud
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Québec
Posts: 1,174
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is a ton of aftermarket support for the car but none of it is even remotely inexpensive. Henceforth why I sold the Supra and put a $25k cash down on a lightly used IS F.