Lexus vs. rival service intervals?
#1
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
Lexus vs. rival service intervals?
Does anyone know why Lexus recommends service every 5,000 miles, while rivals such as Mercedes-Benz/BMW do so every 10,000 miles? I was reading a review of the GS 430, and Automobile Magazine asked the same thing.
http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews...430/index.html
Another article says they did so in response to competition:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...0/ai_65352781/
This article says that different brands have used software to sense oil changes:
http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dl...&rssfeed=rss06
http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews...430/index.html
Six-Month Update True to the Lexus brand's reputation for high customer-satisfaction ratings and excellent reliability, our GS430 has been trouble free since its arrival last summer, with only Lexus-recommended service visits every 5000 miles. (We wonder about the short service intervals, however, given that both Mercedes-Benz and BMW call for 10,000 miles or more between service visits.)
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...0/ai_65352781/
Mercedes-Benz and BMW counterattacked [Lexus] with mid-sized V-8s, longer maintenance intervals, new dealerships and improved customer service
http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dl...&rssfeed=rss06
#4
10k intervals in this part of the world. I'm just about to book my third (30k) service. Thankfully it's the cheaper intermediate service.
#6
It's called free maintenance versus paid maintenance. BMW and MB offering free maintenance, of course they'll want to offer a longer interval for maintenance. Lexus you pay, so they want to have you back as soon as possible.
Rule of thumb, just go with conventional wisdom of 5K for oil/filter, 10K for other filters and you're good.
Rule of thumb, just go with conventional wisdom of 5K for oil/filter, 10K for other filters and you're good.
#7
Lexus Test Driver
Audi is 10K maintenance as well and there is no free maintenance. I think the main reason is the oil sludge problem they have in the pass. A 5000 mile oil change will prevent that problem. Even the new RX which use synthetic I believe is still sticking with the 5000 miles interval. 5000 mile maintenance is good for reliability and good for the dealers, just not good for the customers.
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#8
Same in Sweden. First service at 15000km. About $500 for a visual inspection plus oil & filter change...
Last edited by UpSideDown; 09-16-09 at 01:51 AM.
#9
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (2)
It has much to do with the motor oil.. The typical Mobil 1, Castrol Syntec/Edge oils are made from base stock & not 100% synthetic.. These oils will not withstand high temps & demands @10k & beyond like that of 100% synthetics oils like the German castrol, Amsoil, etc & must be changed sooner...
More info online
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_oil
I don't exceed 10k per year on my cars because I have more than one.. I change the oil on my cars once a year..
Standards
[edit] American Petroleum Institute
The American Petroleum Institute (API) sets minimum for performance standards for lubricants. Motor oil is used for the lubrication, cooling, and cleaning of internal combustion engines. Motor oil may be composed of a lubricant base stock only in the case of non-detergent oil, or a lubricant base stock plus additives to improve the oil's detergency, extreme pressure performance, and ability to inhibit corrosion of engine parts. Lubricant base stocks are categorized into five groups by the API. Group I base stocks are composed of fractionally distilled petroleum which is further refined with solvent extraction processes to improve certain properties such as oxidation resistance and to remove wax. Group II base stocks are composed of fractionally distilled petroleum that has been hydrocracked to further refine and purify it. Group III base stocks have similar characteristics to Group II base stocks, except that Group III base stocks have higher viscosity indexes. Group III base stocks are produced by further hydrocracking of Group II base stocks, or of hydroisomerized slack wax, (a byproduct of the dewaxing process). Group IV base stock are polyalphaolefins (PAOs). Group V is a catch-all group for any base stock not described by Groups I to IV. Examples of group V base stocks include polyol esters, polyalkylene glycols (PAG oils), and perfluoropolyalkylethers (PFPAEs). Groups I and II are commonly referred to as mineral oils, group III is typically referred to as synthetic (except in Germany and Japan, where they must not be called synthetic) and group IV is a synthetic oil. Group V base oils are so diverse that there is no catch-all description.
[edit] API service classes
The API service classes[8] have two general classifications: S for "service" (originating from spark ignition) (typical passenger cars and light trucks using gasoline engines), and C for "commercial" (originating from compression ignition) (typical diesel equipment). Engine oil which has been tested and meets the API standards may display the API Service Symbol (also known as the "Donut") with the service designation on containers sold to oil users.[8]
Note that the API oil classification structure has eliminated specific support for wet-clutch motorcycle applications in their descriptors, and API SJ and newer oils are referred to be specific to automobile and light truck use. Accordingly, motorcycle oils are subject to their own unique standards.
The latest API service standard designation is SM for gasoline automobile and light-truck engines. The SM standard refers to a group of laboratory and engine tests, including the latest series for control of high-temperature deposits. Current API service categories include SM, SL and SJ for gasoline engines. All previous service designations are obsolete, although motorcycle oils commonly still use the SF/SG standard.
All the current gasoline categories (including the obsolete SH), have placed limitations on the phosphorus content for certain SAE viscosity grades (the xW-20, xW-30) due to the chemical poisoning that phosphorus has on catalytic converters. Phosphorus is a key anti-wear component in motor oil and is usually found in motor oil in the form of Zinc_dithiophosphate. Each new API category has placed successively lower phosphorus limits, and this has created a controversial issue of backwards compatibility with much older engines, especially engines with sliding tappets. API, and ILSAC, which represents most of the worlds major automobile/engine manufactures, states API SM/ILSAC GF-4 is fully backwards compatible, and it is noted that one of the engine tests required for API SM, the Sequence IVA, is a sliding tappet design to test specifically for cam wear protection. However, not everyone is in agreement with backwards compatibility, and in addition, there are special situations, such as "modified" engines or fully race built engines, where the engine protection requirements are above and beyond API/ILSAC requirements. Because of this, there are specialty oils out in the market place with higher than API allowed phosphorus levels.
There are six diesel engine service designations which are current: CJ-4, CI-4, CH-4, CG-4, CF-2, and CF. All others are obsolete. In addition, API created a separated CI-4 PLUS designation in conjunction with CJ-4 and CI-4 for oils that meet certain extra requirements, and this marking is located in the lower portion of the API Service Symbol "Donut".
It is possible for an oil to conform to both the gasoline and diesel standards. In fact, it is the norm for all diesel rated engine oils to carry the "corresponding" gasoline specification. For example, API CJ-4 will almost always list either SL or SM, API CI-4 with SL, API CH-4 with SJ ... etc.
[edit] ILSAC
The International Lubricant Standardization and Approval Committee (ILSAC) also has standards for motor oil. Their latest standard, GF-4[9] was approved in 2004, and applies to SAE 0W-20, 5W-20, 0W-30, 5W-30, and 10W-30 viscosity grade oils. In general, ILSAC works with API in creating the newest gasoline oil specification, with ILSAC adding an extra requirement of fuel economy testing to their specification. For GF-4, a Sequence VIB Fuel Economy Test (ASTM D6837) is required that is not required in API service category SM.
A key new test for GF-4, which is also required for API SM, is the Sequence IIIG, which involves running a 3.8 L (232 in³), GM 3.8 L V-6 at 125 hp (93 kW), 3,600 rpm, and 150 °C (300 °F) oil temperature for 100 hours. These are much more severe conditions than any API-specified oil was designed for: cars which typically push their oil temperature consistently above 100 °C (212 °F) are most turbocharged engines, along with most engines of European or Japanese origin, particularly small capacity, high power output.
The IIIG test is about 50% more difficult[10] than the previous IIIF test, used in GF-3 and API SL oils. Engine oils bearing the API starburst symbol since 2005 are ILSAC GF-4 compliant.[11]
[edit] American Petroleum Institute
The American Petroleum Institute (API) sets minimum for performance standards for lubricants. Motor oil is used for the lubrication, cooling, and cleaning of internal combustion engines. Motor oil may be composed of a lubricant base stock only in the case of non-detergent oil, or a lubricant base stock plus additives to improve the oil's detergency, extreme pressure performance, and ability to inhibit corrosion of engine parts. Lubricant base stocks are categorized into five groups by the API. Group I base stocks are composed of fractionally distilled petroleum which is further refined with solvent extraction processes to improve certain properties such as oxidation resistance and to remove wax. Group II base stocks are composed of fractionally distilled petroleum that has been hydrocracked to further refine and purify it. Group III base stocks have similar characteristics to Group II base stocks, except that Group III base stocks have higher viscosity indexes. Group III base stocks are produced by further hydrocracking of Group II base stocks, or of hydroisomerized slack wax, (a byproduct of the dewaxing process). Group IV base stock are polyalphaolefins (PAOs). Group V is a catch-all group for any base stock not described by Groups I to IV. Examples of group V base stocks include polyol esters, polyalkylene glycols (PAG oils), and perfluoropolyalkylethers (PFPAEs). Groups I and II are commonly referred to as mineral oils, group III is typically referred to as synthetic (except in Germany and Japan, where they must not be called synthetic) and group IV is a synthetic oil. Group V base oils are so diverse that there is no catch-all description.
[edit] API service classes
The API service classes[8] have two general classifications: S for "service" (originating from spark ignition) (typical passenger cars and light trucks using gasoline engines), and C for "commercial" (originating from compression ignition) (typical diesel equipment). Engine oil which has been tested and meets the API standards may display the API Service Symbol (also known as the "Donut") with the service designation on containers sold to oil users.[8]
Note that the API oil classification structure has eliminated specific support for wet-clutch motorcycle applications in their descriptors, and API SJ and newer oils are referred to be specific to automobile and light truck use. Accordingly, motorcycle oils are subject to their own unique standards.
The latest API service standard designation is SM for gasoline automobile and light-truck engines. The SM standard refers to a group of laboratory and engine tests, including the latest series for control of high-temperature deposits. Current API service categories include SM, SL and SJ for gasoline engines. All previous service designations are obsolete, although motorcycle oils commonly still use the SF/SG standard.
All the current gasoline categories (including the obsolete SH), have placed limitations on the phosphorus content for certain SAE viscosity grades (the xW-20, xW-30) due to the chemical poisoning that phosphorus has on catalytic converters. Phosphorus is a key anti-wear component in motor oil and is usually found in motor oil in the form of Zinc_dithiophosphate. Each new API category has placed successively lower phosphorus limits, and this has created a controversial issue of backwards compatibility with much older engines, especially engines with sliding tappets. API, and ILSAC, which represents most of the worlds major automobile/engine manufactures, states API SM/ILSAC GF-4 is fully backwards compatible, and it is noted that one of the engine tests required for API SM, the Sequence IVA, is a sliding tappet design to test specifically for cam wear protection. However, not everyone is in agreement with backwards compatibility, and in addition, there are special situations, such as "modified" engines or fully race built engines, where the engine protection requirements are above and beyond API/ILSAC requirements. Because of this, there are specialty oils out in the market place with higher than API allowed phosphorus levels.
There are six diesel engine service designations which are current: CJ-4, CI-4, CH-4, CG-4, CF-2, and CF. All others are obsolete. In addition, API created a separated CI-4 PLUS designation in conjunction with CJ-4 and CI-4 for oils that meet certain extra requirements, and this marking is located in the lower portion of the API Service Symbol "Donut".
It is possible for an oil to conform to both the gasoline and diesel standards. In fact, it is the norm for all diesel rated engine oils to carry the "corresponding" gasoline specification. For example, API CJ-4 will almost always list either SL or SM, API CI-4 with SL, API CH-4 with SJ ... etc.
[edit] ILSAC
The International Lubricant Standardization and Approval Committee (ILSAC) also has standards for motor oil. Their latest standard, GF-4[9] was approved in 2004, and applies to SAE 0W-20, 5W-20, 0W-30, 5W-30, and 10W-30 viscosity grade oils. In general, ILSAC works with API in creating the newest gasoline oil specification, with ILSAC adding an extra requirement of fuel economy testing to their specification. For GF-4, a Sequence VIB Fuel Economy Test (ASTM D6837) is required that is not required in API service category SM.
A key new test for GF-4, which is also required for API SM, is the Sequence IIIG, which involves running a 3.8 L (232 in³), GM 3.8 L V-6 at 125 hp (93 kW), 3,600 rpm, and 150 °C (300 °F) oil temperature for 100 hours. These are much more severe conditions than any API-specified oil was designed for: cars which typically push their oil temperature consistently above 100 °C (212 °F) are most turbocharged engines, along with most engines of European or Japanese origin, particularly small capacity, high power output.
The IIIG test is about 50% more difficult[10] than the previous IIIF test, used in GF-3 and API SL oils. Engine oils bearing the API starburst symbol since 2005 are ILSAC GF-4 compliant.[11]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_oil
I don't exceed 10k per year on my cars because I have more than one.. I change the oil on my cars once a year..
Last edited by DASHOCKER; 09-15-09 at 06:36 AM.
#10
Guest
Posts: n/a
Audi is 10K maintenance as well and there is no free maintenance. I think the main reason is the oil sludge problem they have in the pass. A 5000 mile oil change will prevent that problem. Even the new RX which use synthetic I believe is still sticking with the 5000 miles interval. 5000 mile maintenance is good for reliability and good for the dealers, just not good for the customers.
5k is also the "recommended" service, its not something to be done every time if you don't want it to. Newer models now have a lot of fluids that don't need replacing or need replacing after 100k miles or so..
#11
Lexus Test Driver
It has much to do with the motor oil.. The typical Mobil 1, Castrol Syntec/Edge oils are made from base stock & not 100% synthetic.. These oils will not withstand high temps & demands @10k & beyond like that of 100% synthetics oils like the German castrol, Amsoil, etc & must be changed sooner...
#12
exclusive matchup
iTrader: (4)
It's called free maintenance versus paid maintenance. BMW and MB offering free maintenance, of course they'll want to offer a longer interval for maintenance. Lexus you pay, so they want to have you back as soon as possible.
Rule of thumb, just go with conventional wisdom of 5K for oil/filter, 10K for other filters and you're good.
Rule of thumb, just go with conventional wisdom of 5K for oil/filter, 10K for other filters and you're good.
#13
Lexus Fanatic
Mercedes (gasoline car) intervals were 13K trhough model year 2008, changed to 10K miles recently, always w/synthetic oil.
Last Jag I had, intervals were 10K miles on regular oil, free maintenance included during warranty period.
I do my Lexus oil changes (regular oil) at 6-7K miles, dealer is ok with that interval.
Last Jag I had, intervals were 10K miles on regular oil, free maintenance included during warranty period.
I do my Lexus oil changes (regular oil) at 6-7K miles, dealer is ok with that interval.
#14
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Looks like 10k intervals for Toyota/Lexus is not to far away, would also be interesting to see if they add a quart or 2 of oil the engine when they increase the interval
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/showthread.php?t=54840
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/showthread.php?t=54840