Mileage Champs See the U.S.A. at 67.9 M.P.G.
09-16-09, 09:08 AM
#16
Lexus Champion
I think hypermiling is for idiots. Trying save a few bucks by tailgating a 18 wheeler, going 45 in 65 MPH zone causing traffic and hazard. I was merely trying to prove a point I made early, diesel engines are generally more efficient on the highway while hybrids are more efficient in the city. Now, only if someone come out with a Hybrid diesel at a affortable price, then we would really have one heck of a car.
09-16-09, 09:19 AM
#17
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67.9 what?
http://www.zoomilife.com/2009/03/29/...ests-at-70mpg/
http://www.zoomilife.com/2009/03/29/...ests-at-70mpg/
Recent test drives in Napa Valley resulted in most of the drivers getting better than 70 miles per gallon!
09-16-09, 09:35 AM
#18
I think hypermiling is for idiots. Trying save a few bucks by tailgating a 18 wheeler, going 45 in 65 MPH zone causing traffic and hazard. I was merely trying to prove a point I made early, diesel engines are generally more efficient on the highway while hybrids are more efficient in the city. Now, only if someone come out with a Hybrid diesel at a affortable price, then we would really have one heck of a car.
Try to think of fuel not as petrol, diesel, but as a liquid that contains energy. This energy can be measured in BTUs, Watts, Horse powers, or even calories. In the case of diesel vs petrol, diesel is contains about 20% more energy than petrol. It also weights 20% more. And a lot of diesel cars get about 20% more mile per gallon vs their petrol siblings.
However, it just happens so that both diesel and petrol are made from the same crude oil. It is important to understand that a barrel of crude oil contains the same amount of energy, and no matter how you extract it, you cannot extract more energy out of it than there is to begin with. While refining is a complex process, and many products besides petrol and diesel are made from a barrel of crude, if you simplified thing and only extracted either diesel or petrol out of it, in the end you would end up with 20% less diesel compared to petrol. So in fact, while you do observe "perceived" fuel economy in your own vehicle, it does not affect grand scale oil usage one bit.
It gets even better. Like I mentioned before, oil refining is a complex process, and many different products are made from it. The refining industry has optimized refining process in regards to what percentage of oil is used for each product. The process is optimized to be as cost effective, profitable, efficient and with as little waste as possible. If everyone decided to switch to diesel, this process wouldn't be as efficient, and more oil would've been wasted or used for less profitable byproducts.
I have personally criticized diesels on this forum many times, and here's why.
First of all you have traditional diesels. Yes, they were reliable, dependable, and economical. But drive-ability sucked, but even worse is being stock in traffic behind a stinky 80's diesel Mercedes or worse yet, a school bus.
Of course you have many applications, such as heavy trucks where diesel is pretty much necessary because diesel engines generally generate a lot of low end torque. But at least with heavy trucks, most of them have their exhaust pipes pointed up towards the sky. But when being stuck in NYC traffic behind a diesel car/school bus/van that spits the fumes right out of the back, you're guaranteed to come home with a headache. But to be fair, its not only diesels that cause this problem. A lot of trucks/vans/pickups in the USA have emissions requirements that are subpar compared to cars, and their exhaust fumes are horrendous as well. And don't even get me started one the NYC Buses. Some kind of genius wrote on all of them that they are somehow "clean energy" propane or some other gas... Well, the smell out of their exhaust is so poisonous, its just insane.
Obviously, I wasn't the only one concerned with the exhaust fumes of a diesel engine, so now we have these clean diesels. Well the problem with these, is that they are expensive, hugely complex, which will affect service costs and reliability, but the biggest problem is that they do not seem to be efficient. While the Jetta TDI seems to be ok, you have cars like ML320 bluetec that gets a bare 5% better fuel mileage vs its petrol ML350 sibling. Sorry, but if your engine is using 20% more oil (indirectly), I expect a minimum 20% better fuel mileage. And when you consider the cost, complexity, and the fact that its not quite as driveable as the petrol, I fail to see the point. Especially when diesel fuel is often more expensive than petrol.
So, like it or not, but petrol cars are not going anywhere. Petrol is simply the best fuel available right now when all things are considered. Until electric cars and battery technology mature, along with improvements to electrical grid, petrol fuel will be the best option at least for passenger cars. And hybrid technology only helps making petrol cars more efficient and more powerful.
Last edited by Och; 09-16-09 at 10:39 AM.
09-16-09, 11:12 AM
#19
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While diesel engines may seem efficient, you need to consider the following, to determine whether or not they are really efficient.
Try to think of fuel not as petrol, diesel, but as a liquid that contains energy. This energy can be measured in BTUs, Watts, Horse powers, or even calories. In the case of diesel vs petrol, diesel is contains about 20% more energy than petrol. It also weights 20% more. And a lot of diesel cars get about 20% more mile per gallon vs their petrol siblings.
However, it just happens so that both diesel and petrol are made from the same crude oil. It is important to understand that a barrel of crude oil contains the same amount of energy, and no matter how you extract it, you cannot extract more energy out of it than there is to begin with. While refining is a complex process, and many products besides petrol and diesel are made from a barrel of crude, if you simplified thing and only extracted either diesel or petrol out of it, in the end you would end up with 20% less diesel compared to petrol. So in fact, while you do observe "perceived" fuel economy in your own vehicle, it does not affect grand scale oil usage one bit.
It gets even better. Like I mentioned before, oil refining is a complex process, and many different products are made from it. The refining industry has optimized refining process in regards to what percentage of oil is used for each product. The process is optimized to be as cost effective, profitable, efficient and with as little waste as possible. If everyone decided to switch to diesel, this process wouldn't be as efficient, and more oil would've been wasted or used for less profitable byproducts.
I have personally criticized diesels on this forum many times, and here's why.
First of all you have traditional diesels. Yes, they were reliable, dependable, and economical. But drive-ability sucked, but even worse is being stock in traffic behind a stinky 80's diesel Mercedes or worse yet, a school bus.
Of course you have many applications, such as heavy trucks where diesel is pretty much necessary because diesel engines generally generate a lot of low end torque. But at least with heavy trucks, most of them have their exhaust pipes pointed up towards the sky. But when being stuck in NYC traffic behind a diesel car/school bus/van that spits the fumes right out of the back, you're guaranteed to come home with a headache. But to be fair, its not only diesels that cause this problem. A lot of trucks/vans/pickups in the USA have emissions requirements that are subpar compared to cars, and their exhaust fumes are horrendous as well. And don't even get me started one the NYC Buses. Some kind of genius wrote on all of them that they are somehow "clean energy" propane or some other gas... Well, the smell out of their exhaust is so poisonous, its just insane.
Obviously, I wasn't the only one concerned with the exhaust fumes of a diesel engine, so now we have these clean diesels. Well the problem with these, is that they are expensive, hugely complex, which will affect service costs and reliability, but the biggest problem is that they do not seem to be efficient. While the Jetta TDI seems to be ok, you have cars like ML320 bluetec that gets a bare 5% better fuel mileage vs its petrol ML350 sibling. Sorry, but if your engine is using 20% more oil (indirectly), I expect a minimum 20% better fuel mileage. And when you consider the cost, complexity, and the fact that its not quite as driveable as the petrol, I fail to see the point. Especially when diesel fuel is often more expensive than petrol.
So, like it or not, but petrol cars are not going anywhere. Petrol is simply the best fuel available right now when all things are considered. Until electric cars and battery technology mature, along with improvements to electrical grid, petrol fuel will be the best option at least for passenger cars. And hybrid technology only helps making petrol cars more efficient and more powerful.
Try to think of fuel not as petrol, diesel, but as a liquid that contains energy. This energy can be measured in BTUs, Watts, Horse powers, or even calories. In the case of diesel vs petrol, diesel is contains about 20% more energy than petrol. It also weights 20% more. And a lot of diesel cars get about 20% more mile per gallon vs their petrol siblings.
However, it just happens so that both diesel and petrol are made from the same crude oil. It is important to understand that a barrel of crude oil contains the same amount of energy, and no matter how you extract it, you cannot extract more energy out of it than there is to begin with. While refining is a complex process, and many products besides petrol and diesel are made from a barrel of crude, if you simplified thing and only extracted either diesel or petrol out of it, in the end you would end up with 20% less diesel compared to petrol. So in fact, while you do observe "perceived" fuel economy in your own vehicle, it does not affect grand scale oil usage one bit.
It gets even better. Like I mentioned before, oil refining is a complex process, and many different products are made from it. The refining industry has optimized refining process in regards to what percentage of oil is used for each product. The process is optimized to be as cost effective, profitable, efficient and with as little waste as possible. If everyone decided to switch to diesel, this process wouldn't be as efficient, and more oil would've been wasted or used for less profitable byproducts.
I have personally criticized diesels on this forum many times, and here's why.
First of all you have traditional diesels. Yes, they were reliable, dependable, and economical. But drive-ability sucked, but even worse is being stock in traffic behind a stinky 80's diesel Mercedes or worse yet, a school bus.
Of course you have many applications, such as heavy trucks where diesel is pretty much necessary because diesel engines generally generate a lot of low end torque. But at least with heavy trucks, most of them have their exhaust pipes pointed up towards the sky. But when being stuck in NYC traffic behind a diesel car/school bus/van that spits the fumes right out of the back, you're guaranteed to come home with a headache. But to be fair, its not only diesels that cause this problem. A lot of trucks/vans/pickups in the USA have emissions requirements that are subpar compared to cars, and their exhaust fumes are horrendous as well. And don't even get me started one the NYC Buses. Some kind of genius wrote on all of them that they are somehow "clean energy" propane or some other gas... Well, the smell out of their exhaust is so poisonous, its just insane.
Obviously, I wasn't the only one concerned with the exhaust fumes of a diesel engine, so now we have these clean diesels. Well the problem with these, is that they are expensive, hugely complex, which will affect service costs and reliability, but the biggest problem is that they do not seem to be efficient. While the Jetta TDI seems to be ok, you have cars like ML320 bluetec that gets a bare 5% better fuel mileage vs its petrol ML350 sibling. Sorry, but if your engine is using 20% more oil (indirectly), I expect a minimum 20% better fuel mileage. And when you consider the cost, complexity, and the fact that its not quite as driveable as the petrol, I fail to see the point. Especially when diesel fuel is often more expensive than petrol.
So, like it or not, but petrol cars are not going anywhere. Petrol is simply the best fuel available right now when all things are considered. Until electric cars and battery technology mature, along with improvements to electrical grid, petrol fuel will be the best option at least for passenger cars. And hybrid technology only helps making petrol cars more efficient and more powerful.
09-16-09, 11:27 AM
#20
Theres a standard system for measuring fuel economy, called EPA, and thats what I go by. Actual mileage depends on many conditions - ones driving style, traffic and road conditions, terrain, temperature, air density and other factors.
If you want to use a skate board, or a bicycle, go ahead. Just don't forget that while riding a bicycle your burning more calories, which need to be replenished by eating more food. Those poor chickens...
And then rate of breath increases, so you're producing more carbonhardons Yeah, and good luck with that biodiesel
Last edited by Och; 09-16-09 at 11:31 AM.
09-16-09, 11:47 AM
#21
Lexus Test Driver
They are pretty close in price, the national average for diesel is 6 cents more than gasoline
http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/oog/info/gdu/gasdiesel.asp
http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/oog/info/gdu/gasdiesel.asp
09-16-09, 02:11 PM
#22
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The reason I am very fond of diesel's is my van's. I used to run 3 chevy expresses 3500 they were odly shaped not tall enough and used up ridiculous amounts of fuel. I now have 2 dodge(mercedes) sprinter's 3500 with the longes wheelbase's on the market and highest roof's, I basicly get double the fuel economy and I can carry more stuff in the 2 of them than in the 3 chevy's I had. Both have around 150k and running strong
09-16-09, 02:32 PM
#23
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