GM makes better engines than toyota. ?
09-23-09, 12:21 PM
#31
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Well, it was about time GM got on par with other manufacturers. This 3.6 V6 is not exotic by any means, but it is definitely on par with Toyota 2GR-FSE - they basically have the same tech, same displacement, same output and same efficiency. Which one of them is smoother is purely subjective, they are so similar. Both are pretty much as good and advanced as production NA V6 engines are going to get, until someone invents some new technologies.
With that being said, as far as reliability and durability, both are pretty new, so it remains to be seen. Since both are pretty new products, little issues here and there can be expected from both manufacturers. They will be worked out on the updated versions. Just look at Toyota's 1UZ engine for instance, it was very advanced for its time and did have some issues... By the time Toyota put that design to rest, its 3UZ variation was pretty much perfect.
With that being said, as far as reliability and durability, both are pretty new, so it remains to be seen. Since both are pretty new products, little issues here and there can be expected from both manufacturers. They will be worked out on the updated versions. Just look at Toyota's 1UZ engine for instance, it was very advanced for its time and did have some issues... By the time Toyota put that design to rest, its 3UZ variation was pretty much perfect.
Actually, the 2GR is 100cc smaller, 2hp stronger and 3 ft-lbs torquier
09-23-09, 12:23 PM
#32
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the V6 camaro & CTS DI 3.6L makes 18/29 epa mileage and 304hp, 274tq.
6 speed.
MPG a tad better than the 2GR FSE in the GS and IS.
since when did GM start making engines as good as toyota?
the last GM car I drove was a chevy impala rental car, and i got both crappy power and mpg.
6 speed.
MPG a tad better than the 2GR FSE in the GS and IS.
since when did GM start making engines as good as toyota?
the last GM car I drove was a chevy impala rental car, and i got both crappy power and mpg.
After a few years, we will see how this engine holds up.
Is it a great engine? Yes it is.
We shouldn't be talking about Toyota. We should be saying why does GM have a superior engine to a supposed "engineering company" Honda/Acura. GM completely trumps them.
09-23-09, 12:29 PM
#33
Well what Honda is doing is basically what GM was doing until recent... Keep making stale outdated products. Now they are in the midlife crisis stage with the ZDX, they'll be dead before they know what hit them... at least their Acura division.
09-23-09, 12:32 PM
#34
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THe Honda/Acura vehicles are slower and get less MPG. GM V-6> Honda V-6 no argument. A damn shame really. The Honda/Acura engines are not bad, just old, outdated and outclassed by everyone pretty much, Hyundai, Nissan, etc
09-23-09, 12:37 PM
#36
Lexus Test Driver
If HP is the only thing that matters, then the Toyota and Honda engines are out class. If it is a point a to point b car, then I will take the more reliable Honda and Toyota over a few more HP.
09-23-09, 12:49 PM
#37
I'd say both Toyota 3.5 V6 are easily on top of their classes. Toyota's four cylinders are best in their classes for fuel efficiency. Then you have hybrids which are class leading again. And the 4.6 V8 is again on top of its class when it comes to smoothness, output and efficiency.
There are simply categories where Toyota doesn't complete, so yes, if you're going to compare LS460 against S65 AMG, then yes, the 460 might seem outclassed. But thats not a proper comparison.
I'd say that the only engines in Toyota's lineup right now that are "outclassed" are the 4.7 V8 in the GX and 2.5 V6 in the IS.
Honda on the other hand... their 4 cylinders still fare well, but their 6 cylinders are outclassed by everything, they are downright pathetic.
09-23-09, 12:55 PM
#38
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Cut this nonsense, how exactly are Toyota engines out of class?
I'd say both Toyota 3.5 V6 are easily on top of their classes. Toyota's four cylinders are best in their classes for fuel efficiency. Then you have hybrids which are class leading again. And the 4.6 V8 is again on top of its class when it comes to smoothness, output and efficiency.
There are simply categories where Toyota doesn't complete, so yes, if you're going to compare LS460 against S65 AMG, then yes, the 460 might seem outclassed. But thats not a proper comparison.
I'd say that the only engines in Toyota's lineup right now that are "outclassed" are the 4.7 V8 in the GX and 2.5 V6 in the IS.
Honda on the other hand... their 4 cylinders still fare well, but their 6 cylinders are outclassed by everything, they are downright pathetic.
I'd say both Toyota 3.5 V6 are easily on top of their classes. Toyota's four cylinders are best in their classes for fuel efficiency. Then you have hybrids which are class leading again. And the 4.6 V8 is again on top of its class when it comes to smoothness, output and efficiency.
There are simply categories where Toyota doesn't complete, so yes, if you're going to compare LS460 against S65 AMG, then yes, the 460 might seem outclassed. But thats not a proper comparison.
I'd say that the only engines in Toyota's lineup right now that are "outclassed" are the 4.7 V8 in the GX and 2.5 V6 in the IS.
Honda on the other hand... their 4 cylinders still fare well, but their 6 cylinders are outclassed by everything, they are downright pathetic.
Benz needs 5.5 liters to make 382hp. So nearly a whole liter for 2hp
BMW needs twin turbos to make 400hp in its V-8. So each turbo adds 10 hp
You cannot bunch the two brands together, Lexus has far more engines and they are far more advanced than anything Honda makes.
Lexus engines have always been a model in power & efficiency. They rarely are bigger or as big as the German competition.Nissan/ Infiniti goes the German route, with bigger displacement engines (3.7, 4.5 and now 5.6)
The 1998 GS 400 made 300hp from 4.0 liters. The BMW 4.4 made 282 hp and the Benz E420 made 275 hp.
Clearly ***** OUT, the Germans win, with huge 6.3 engines and V-10s, V-12s etc. They are fantastic.
09-23-09, 01:04 PM
#39
Lexus Test Driver
Lexus needs 4.6 liters to make 380hp
Benz needs 5.5 liters to make 382hp. So nearly a whole liter for 2hp
BMW needs twin turbos to make 400hp in its V-8. So each turbo adds 10 hp
You cannot bunch the two brands together, Lexus has far more engines and they are far more advanced than anything Honda makes.
Lexus engines have always been a model in power & efficiency. They rarely are bigger or as big as the German competition.Nissan/ Infiniti goes the German route, with bigger displacement engines (3.7, 4.5 and now 5.6)
The 1998 GS 400 made 300hp from 4.0 liters. The BMW 4.4 made 282 hp and the Benz E420 made 275 hp.
Clearly ***** OUT, the Germans win, with huge 6.3 engines and V-10s, V-12s etc. They are fantastic.
Benz needs 5.5 liters to make 382hp. So nearly a whole liter for 2hp
BMW needs twin turbos to make 400hp in its V-8. So each turbo adds 10 hp
You cannot bunch the two brands together, Lexus has far more engines and they are far more advanced than anything Honda makes.
Lexus engines have always been a model in power & efficiency. They rarely are bigger or as big as the German competition.Nissan/ Infiniti goes the German route, with bigger displacement engines (3.7, 4.5 and now 5.6)
The 1998 GS 400 made 300hp from 4.0 liters. The BMW 4.4 made 282 hp and the Benz E420 made 275 hp.
Clearly ***** OUT, the Germans win, with huge 6.3 engines and V-10s, V-12s etc. They are fantastic.
09-23-09, 01:06 PM
#40
Lexus needs 4.6 liters to make 380hp
Benz needs 5.5 liters to make 382hp. So nearly a whole liter for 2hp
BMW needs twin turbos to make 400hp in its V-8. So each turbo adds 10 hp
You cannot bunch the two brands together, Lexus has far more engines and they are far more advanced than anything Honda makes.
Lexus engines have always been a model in power & efficiency. They rarely are bigger or as big as the German competition.Nissan/ Infiniti goes the German route, with bigger displacement engines (3.7, 4.5 and now 5.6)
The 1998 GS 400 made 300hp from 4.0 liters. The BMW 4.4 made 282 hp and the Benz E420 made 275 hp.
Clearly ***** OUT, the Germans win, with huge 6.3 engines and V-10s, V-12s etc. They are fantastic.
Benz needs 5.5 liters to make 382hp. So nearly a whole liter for 2hp
BMW needs twin turbos to make 400hp in its V-8. So each turbo adds 10 hp
You cannot bunch the two brands together, Lexus has far more engines and they are far more advanced than anything Honda makes.
Lexus engines have always been a model in power & efficiency. They rarely are bigger or as big as the German competition.Nissan/ Infiniti goes the German route, with bigger displacement engines (3.7, 4.5 and now 5.6)
The 1998 GS 400 made 300hp from 4.0 liters. The BMW 4.4 made 282 hp and the Benz E420 made 275 hp.
Clearly ***** OUT, the Germans win, with huge 6.3 engines and V-10s, V-12s etc. They are fantastic.
With that being said, time will tell how good 2GR-FSE will fare in the long run, and the same for GM's LLT engine. Right now you cant go wrong with either one.
09-23-09, 01:09 PM
#41
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Posts: n/a
ANy figures or links, I don't have any on the top of my head. 
Trust me I am not going to get in a pissing match over Lexus engines better than German engines. THey both make fine engines. Germans today have turbos and diesels, Lexus has hybrids.
I love many of them. GM needs to continue building great engines, not have one or two good ones.
Trust me I am not going to get in a pissing match over Lexus engines better than German engines. THey both make fine engines. Germans today have turbos and diesels, Lexus has hybrids.
I love many of them. GM needs to continue building great engines, not have one or two good ones.
09-23-09, 01:11 PM
#42
I don't want to start posting dyno charts of torque curves, because that will create a whole different topic, but if an engine makes more torque at lower RPM that the other, but the final HP output is nearly identical, that means that the engine with more torque can't sustain it at higher RPM's, which IMO is just inefficient design.
09-23-09, 01:19 PM
#44
Lexus Test Driver
Only the turbo charged and the super charged German engines makes more torque at low RPM. But as someone have alreasy mentioned, given a German and a Japanese engine with the same HP and torque, the German car always feels faster for what ever reason.
09-23-09, 01:36 PM
#45
Those are not the top of the line V8's. BMW S65 makes 414hp out of 4L. MB's C63 AMG makes 452hp out of 6.2L while Toyota/Lexus is making 415hp out of 5L on ISF. All normally aspirated so no forced induction distortions. BMW is making the most specific HP while MB is clearly gone torque/displacement happy and Lexus engine is doing nothing in between. And for original topic's sake, LS7 from GM is making same kind of specific HP/TQ that AMG is making. 505hp out of 7L V8. Clearly LS7 >> 5L V8 from ISF
Last edited by kt22cliff; 09-23-09 at 01:43 PM.