Gojirra99

I am talking about just the LS in that post A 4-cylinder LS ?

The G Man

maybe a diesel turbo 4 cyl in the GS will sell there. Then again, I wouldnt mind a diesel turbo 4 cyl GS here in the US either

FKL

The european market doesn't want hybrids, they want turbo diesels. Until they offer that, their sales volume in Europe will remain low.

(Cj)

+1

The diesel IS is Lexus's top selling product in Europe. In the UK of the 15000 vehicles they sold there in 2008, 8000 of those were diesel IS220s. Imagine how many more vehicles they would have sold if they offered diesel versions of the LS and GS. They need to expand and offer V6 diesels to match the Germans on sales.

TRDFantasy

They do offer a diesel in the IS, and it has not been very successful.

They need to differentiate themselves from the German brands and offer something unique and enticing to customers, and hybrids are just that right now. The Lexus hybrids have a clear lead in the luxury market right now, and the German brands know that, as well as European customers.

The Lexus hybrids in Europe are also selling quite well. The top selling product in Europe right now for Lexus is actually the RX hybrid AFAIK, not the diesel IS.

FKL

So perhaps Volkswagen should "shutter" to local market demands and do whatever they want, "to be different". Maybe I'm crazy, but why is it that every automaker needs to cater to "American" demands when building a car, but not to European ones? The Europeans don't want hybrids, sales have been less than stellar, and the issue isn't because they offer one diesel.

Expand the model line, offer more trim/engine combinations, and then maybe they'll have more chance at increasing their sales.

TRDFantasy

You're missing the point. The German brands are established there for a long time. Also as a matter of national pride, German brands are popular. Other than reliability, for what reasons would the average German buyer choose a Lexus over the German brands? What strong and convincing reasons other than reliability would entice a German to buy a Lexus over an Audi, BMW, or Benz?

One reason is luxury hybrids. Another reason could be technology, but the Germans offer technology Lexus does not, and vice-versa so technology is a bit of wash.

Reliability alone is not enough for Lexus. Lexus also will never be able to match or exceed the number of engine/trim combinations, because the German brands in Germany offer a lot of low-end, volume engine/trim combinations that Lexus for various reasons will not offer.

Toyota does not want to dilute the image and reputation of the Lexus brand, that is why you will never see a Lexus in Europe offering tiny engines like the German brands do, or low-end trim models.

German brands offer models in UK for example that start at prices as low as 14K Pounds.

The cheapest Lexus starts at about 20K pounds in the UK.

If we look at the German market, the cheapest Lexus in Germany starts at 30K Euros.

The cheapest Benz starts at roughly 20K Euros, cheapest Audi starts at roughly 20K Euros. The cheapest BMW starts at about 22K Euros.

That is a 50% price difference between the cheapest Lexus and the cheapest German luxury car, which is a BIG difference.

The upcoming Lexus CT hatch will probably cost less in Germany than the IS, but probably not by a significant amount.

Due to the fact virtually all Lexus models in Europe are imported, they are faced with high taxes as well.

The German brands achieve high volumes primarily due to fleet sales as well as offering low-end models with much lower prices than Lexus.

The best thing that Lexus can do is either produce a bit more Lexus models in Europe, offer a slightly cheaper car than the IS there (which they will soon do), and try to focus on being very competitive in the mid-range and high-end segments of the market.

LexFather

Lexus is going to drop the IS diesel and offer hybrids in Europe. Hybrids are growing in popularity. I think Lexus knows it might not ever be a huge volume seller in Europe. Most cars sold there are cars Lexus doesn't compete it.
A1, A2, A3, 1 series, 4 cylinder 3 series, small diesels, A class, B class, 4 cylinder diesel c-class...

Lexus cheapest car is far more expensive than the Germans. Lexus is not a volume brand there. They want to sell 100k or so cars in the next decade....thats not a lot.

I'm honestly thinking Lexus doesn't care much b/c its not as profitable. Russia, America, the Middle East are big profit markets for car makers b/c they sell their most expensive vehicles and tons of SUVs there.

There isn't much profit in selling econo car luxury badged cars.

Clearly Lexus is expanding as the CH hatch is coming. They need a subcompact to expand sales.

We have to admit here, Audi, BMW, Benz, Skoda, Seat, Vauxhall, VW, Jag all have some GREAT diesels there. I don't think Lexus is going to out diesel them. Lexus makes the best (and only) hybrids so they are going to keep that distinct advantage.

Makes sense if they are not trying to sell 500,000 cars in Europe.

(Cj)

+1

Another reason Lexus can't go too far down market in Europe is because Toyotas are also sold there.

The LF-Ch is as far down market as they need to go in Europe. I also don't think they should put all their eggs in one basket either (ie only selling hybrids in Europe). They should offer petrol, diesels and hybrids. The more options they provide the better.

They should also consider making a diesel hybrid. Develop an Atkinson-Cycle diesel engine pair it with an electric motor and get 70 or 80 mpg.

TRDFantasy

Diesel hybrid is a bad idea. Diesel engines typically have a cost premium over gasoline engines. Hybrids also have a cost premium over gasoline engines. Put the two together, and you have a big cost premium. Adding a diesel with a hybrid system would ruin the purpose of lowering emissions.

This is not "all their eggs in one basket". Is the fact that German brands offer more diesel than gas engines in Europe considered "all their eggs in one basket too"?

Lexus is not going for huge volume in Western Europe.

Toyota is simply giving the Lexus brand a unique attribute in the Western European luxury market, and that is hybrid specialization.

Toyota wants to maintain a strong image for Lexus in Western Europe; they do not want to go to the low-end of the market that much.

There is no way Toyota can offer more diesel choices with the Lexus brand than the German brands. Germans specialize in diesels, but Lexus wants to cement the fact that it specializes in hybrids into people's minds.

In Europe, when people think "luxury diesel" they immediately think German brands. Lexus wants to immediately be known when people think "luxury hybrid", just like most people almost automatically think Prius when there is a hybrid discussion.

The Eastern European market is a little different, and Lexus will continue to offer a range of gasoline engines there.

Quite a few Western European countries are becoming more and more conscious and concerned about the environment and emissions, which is why Lexus hybrids in that market are gaining popularity. The main problem right now is there is no hybrid even close to affordable. The cheapest hybrid in the market (and currently the most popular Lexus hybrid there) is the RX hybrid. The CT hybrid-only hatch will do a lot to help improve sales in Western Europe.

Typically one would think "the more options the better", but it's not always true. Years ago Mercedes started to cut down their trims and model lines, and continues to do so currently. Why; it is because they had far too many different model lines, and it was overwhelming and confusing to many average consumers.

llamaboiz

*yawn* i dont need to read an article to know this...

Hoovey689

iTrader: (16)

^^ haha true.

The G Man

A hybrid diesel in a mid size sedan such as the Ford Fusion would probably get 40 MPH in the city and 55 MPG in the highway, that sounds pretty low emission to me.

TRDFantasy

Low exhaust EMISSIONS, NOT low fuel usage.

FKL

hmm, well emissions are greatly reduced on a diesel v. petrol engine, so...