rdgdawg

As always Mike,

Question on these two back-to-back:

"Marked body roll as speed inceases.
Ride, IMO, slightly too firm for a true luxury car"

Body roll but harsh ride? For the ES? Roll I can see, but harsh ride... must be a tire issue??

Still would take for entry luxury over about any other make...

Joeb427

iTrader: (1)

Off the lot.Dealer had to find a Tungsten/Black gut.It seems a $40840 sticker is pretty common here.
You have the trunk mat,cargo net separate options but on my sticker those options and wheel locks are part of Preffered Accessory Pkg for $210.May be a NE region package thing.




I do agree with many of your points,though.





True,Mike.Chrome accents are new.




Michelin Primacy tires have great ratings too.Top tire is Tire Rack tests and consumer survey but not available in the ES 350's 215/55-17 at Tire Rack.
The Bridgestone Serenity came in second in Tire Rack tests but ride comfort and quietness was better.
The Primacy's were actually $10 cheaper per tire than the Serenity's and had a $70 rebate.



True but a lumbar support still could have been included.






Maybe the LaCrosse will grow on me and a test ride will take place.Right now,I'm just not interested in the car.




I'm still not ready to take the plunge with an American badge.
The only two I probably would consider is a Corvette or a few Cadillac models.


Great review,Mike.

lamar411

Great review, mmarshal, always appreicated. Did you do a review of the ES330 and the 2001 ES300? If you did can you please link them here?

IS350jet

As always, Mike, A great review. As a 2009 ES350 owner, and an associate of Lexus for many years, allow me to clarify some things. The exterior sheet metal and all body hardware have not changed since 2007. I can think of no reason why the 2010 doors would close more solidly than previous models. The interior trim panels, door weatherstripping, sound insulation, hardware, glass, etc. is all the same. As long as you're comparing new to new, there should be no difference.

When discussing the ride of the new ES, I, myself, can't imagine a softer, mushier, ride. (except for the LS, of course) The ride is much too softly sprung for my taste (that's why the wife drives it.) Any softer or mushier and I'd be seasick. It's subjective, of course, but I can't think of anything in its class that rides smoother or softer. I drive an Accord on a daily basis and find it a perfect balance between soft and hard riding. Keep in mind, we're talking about 2007-2009 models. Yes, the ES330 was more softly sprung than the ES350, but, man, what a handling disaster that car was.

Great review, I always love reading them.

MikeP

Joe, doesn't your car have both driver & passenger lumbar support adjustments? My 2010 has that feature which is listed as standard equipment. I would miss not having that feature for long drives.

Joeb427

iTrader: (1)

Duh!
I just went and looked and it does.
That's what I get for being too lazy to read the thick manual.I just kept feeling around for the switch while seated.The lumbar switch is toward the back of the seat.
I now love the car even more.

Thanks,MikeP.

MikeP

Although my 2010 ES350 is my first ES, it is my 5th Lexus. I do agree that to rate the ride of the ES as too soft or too hard depends on your frame of reference. I traded in an '07 M35, which I had for 3 years, so that car is what I can compare my ES to. In my experience, the M35 had a firmer ride, not harsh by any means, but stiffer than the ES. What the M35 did better, was to subdue the initial impact of an expansion joint, a pothole or any other jarring road imperfection. The suspension of the M35 caused more rapid bouncing over bumps, whereas the ES sort of floats over them more smoothly.

Ideally, I would "average" the ride/handling of the M35 & ES350 to create the best of both worlds. I don't find the exhaust noise of the ES to be intrusive, especially after the exhaust noise of the M35. Also the wind noise is much lower at Interstate speeds than the M35.

Overall, the ES350 is an impressive car, especially for the price. As others noted in this thread, it does not handle like a BMW, nor was it designed to. But, in my experience, no other car, close to its price, offers the comfort, technology and reliability of the ES350.

LexBob2

You are correct. There have been no changes to the ES350 from '07 thru '09 until the current cosmetic changes for '10.

Gojirra99

Thanks mmarshall for another detailed review

You can't really compare the ride of the ES vs, LS. The LS ride is smooth and soft but feels a lot more solid and less floaty, it feels more secure.
Even my mother noticed the difference right away when I drove her in a loaner ES350 vs. driving her in my LS460L.

mmarshall

The best way to find out, even if the hues appear to the the same (or almost the same) on the outside is to consult a professional body shop. Factory paint codes for specific vehicles and model years are determined by specific mixtures and intensities of pigments, metallics, pearl-effect, and how everything is precisely mixed while applying. A competent body-shop technician can check, in a computer database, and compare the specific make-up of the two colors and answer your question.

mmarshall

Thanks, Russ.

The firm ride (I wouldn't call it harsh) IS at least partly a tire issue, as, in 2007, the tire profile dropped from 60 to 55 (foolishly, IMO, as I pointed out earlier). Lower-profile tires, all else equal, generally have less impact-absorbing qualities in them and tend to transmit more of those impacts through the shorter sidewalls to the suspension, steering system, and body.

This, in the ES, was also multiplied by the additional stiffening of the suspension/shocks in the 2007 model to try and give the chassis more response, as the former ES330 was great for comfort but not much of a canyon-carver (another silly move, IMO, as the ES is not supposed to be a canyon-carver, but a comfortable cruiser).

These changes did work to stiffen things up at lower speeds, and to give good steering response and low body roll at those lower speeds, but, perhaps because Lexus chassis engineers are not as adept as those from BMW and Mercedes-Benz at achieving the ideal compromise under all conditions, allowed for progressively more body roll and less steering reponse as speeds increased, which, of course, put progressively more load on the suspension and tires. They is why BMW and Mercedes chassis engineers are so well-renowned.....they know how to design suspension components (and which tires to use) to achieve an almost-ideal combination of ride/handling combination across the board. BMW engineers, it is agreed, generally do chassis design better than those of any other make.

There is also the question of static vs. "active" (or variable) suspensions. Some suspensions can compromise ride vs. handling with electronically-adjustable components, and the GM Magna-Ride system even goes one step farther by the automatic (and constant) realignment of magnetic particles in the electronic shocks as cruise and cornering loads on them change split-second demands for damping. The ES, of course, lacks features such as these, and has to make do with the static system that the engineers gave it.
That static system, while not bad, is clearly not one of the better ride-vs.-handling compromises on the market.




We'll have to wait and see how much competition the new 2010 Buick LaCrosse gives it. The LaCrosse, despite somewhat lower interior-materials and sheet metal quality, has a lot to offer in the engineering department.

mmarshall

Thanks.

No. I drove a number of the 330 models (and almost bought one), but didn't have any formal write-ups. But I'll answer any questions on the car that I know the answers to, or have specs for.

mmarshall

Thanks.

The wood trim, and the chrome/brushed-metal surounds for it, ARE substantially different in the 2010 model than the 2007-2009......of them, there is no question. In fact, the Lexus designers themselves tote that fact in the car's marketing this year. A friend of mine recently bought a used 2008 model, and there you are correct...there doesn't seem to be any change to the interior trim from the 2007 to 2008 model years.

As for the sheet metal, doors, exterior hardware, to my senses, they do have somewhat of a different feel (and sound) on the 2010 than on the 2007-2009 versions. Of course, that doesn't prove, that the sheet metal itself is any different....on that, I'll agree with you. It could (?) be some slight variations in the way they use sealing strips, adding additonal insulation, or maybe even newer and better ways of doing laser-precise fits during the assembly process. For whatever reason (and I'll leave it up to the engineers to explain whatever differences they used in the 2010 models rather than try and guess at all of them myself), the overall body/interior fit/finish, to my senses, feels noticeably better on the 2010. If I didn't bring that point up, I wouldn't be doing an honest review on my part.

Whether they ARE more solid or not (perhaps a moot point), to me at least, they FEEL more solid.


I'll solve that problem for you right away. Stop at a Buick dealer and check out a Lucerne or a 2009 or older LaCrosse. Same with the Cadillac DTS and Lincoln Town Car. And also drive a non-AMG Mercedes S-class. By today's standards, those cars generally set the stage for chassis/suspension softness, although the S-Class has a sophisticated variable-rate setup that also allows some responsiveness while cornering.




Your opinion (and your wife's) noted and respected , but test-drive an older ES330 with stock-spec tires/wheels and then see if you still think the newer ES350 models are just as soft. Methinks the answer will be no.


Agreed on both counts. The Accord, including the chassis, is an excellent car.....has been for many years, although some people have complained about road noise and weak brakes in a number of Hondas.

As far as the ES330's handing "disaster", it wasn't supposed to be a sports car or a canyon-carver. That's what made it so popular.....and why so many people loved it (although, of course, there were the transmission-shift and the drive-by-wire problems ECU problems that I'm sure, as an asociate of Lexus, you were aware of). The 330 was a rare (and refreshing) change from the world of Car & Driver/Road & Track emphasis on performance, and, like the LS, was a GREAT car to relax in and drive home in ease/comfort at the end of a hard working day when you were tired. The ES350 conversion in 2007, unfortunately, with its stiffer chassis/tires, took away some of that living room lounge-chair comfort.

[/QUOTE]Great review, I always love reading them. [/QUOTE]

Thanks again. I put a lot of time and attention into them.

mmarshall

Like I said in an earlier response, these seats are generally soft and comfort-oriented, not set up for support. If you tend to get lower backaches, the lumbar support will probably come in handy on long drives.

mmarshall

The average Infiniti chassis, in general, is set up more for responsiveness than for ride comfort........this has been the case for a number of years now.
The M45 Sport (which I reviewed a few years ago) is a prime example. So is the FX series, which has never been known for comfort.



Buick, with the new 2010 LaCrosse, however, is trying.....and, in some areas, has succeeded.