Review: 2010 Lexus ES350
11-08-09, 12:54 PM
#31
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
This, BTW, is not limited to Lexus. I noted the same thing with the last-generation Acura TL. The 2008-2009 TLs had a more solid feeling (and seeming better-quality interior materials) over earlier 2005-2006 models, even within the same generation, without a significant redesign. Mike (1SICKLEX) noticed the same thing with the last-generation TL on his reviews.
Last edited by mmarshall; 11-08-09 at 12:58 PM.
11-08-09, 01:02 PM
#32
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
Sure, Andrew....anytime. 
The LS suspension, of course, is far more sophisticated than that of the ES......you're talking about a car that, with options, can run twice the $$$$ an ES does. The ES, even with the added stiffness of the 2007 and later models, is basically derived from the Camry platform.
You can't really compare the ride of the ES vs, LS. The LS ride is smooth and soft but feels a lot more solid and less floaty, it feels more secure.
Even my mother noticed the difference right away when I drove her in a loaner ES350 vs. driving her in my LS460L.
Even my mother noticed the difference right away when I drove her in a loaner ES350 vs. driving her in my LS460L.
Last edited by mmarshall; 11-08-09 at 01:06 PM.
11-08-09, 02:10 PM
#33
Lexus Champion
Like I mentioned earlier, there DOES seem to have been some build-quality changes, on the 2008-2009 models, over the early-production 2007's. The later models not only felt more solid overall, but did not have the dash creaks/rattles that plagued the early models.
This, BTW, is not limited to Lexus. I noted the same thing with the last-generation Acura TL. The 2008-2009 TLs had a more solid feeling (and seeming better-quality interior materials) over earlier 2005-2006 models, even within the same generation, without a significant redesign. Mike (1SICKLEX) noticed the same thing with the last-generation TL on his reviews.
This, BTW, is not limited to Lexus. I noted the same thing with the last-generation Acura TL. The 2008-2009 TLs had a more solid feeling (and seeming better-quality interior materials) over earlier 2005-2006 models, even within the same generation, without a significant redesign. Mike (1SICKLEX) noticed the same thing with the last-generation TL on his reviews.
11-08-09, 03:08 PM
#34
Possibly from strictly a product standpoint, the Lacrosse matches the ES350 in several respects, but as a whole, people buy Lexus and other premium brands for more than just the product. In my opinion, Buick has a way to go before they can be looked at as a tier one manufacturer.
11-08-09, 03:34 PM
#35
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The firm ride (I wouldn't call it harsh) IS at least partly a tire issue, as, in 2007, the tire profile dropped from 60 to 55 (foolishly, IMO, as I pointed out earlier). Lower-profile tires, all else equal, generally have less impact-absorbing qualities in them and tend to transmit more of those impacts through the shorter sidewalls to the suspension, steering system, and body.
This, in the ES, was also multiplied by the additional stiffening of the suspension/shocks in the 2007 model to try and give the chassis more response, as the former ES330 was great for comfort but not much of a canyon-carver (another silly move, IMO, as the ES is not supposed to be a canyon-carver, but a comfortable cruiser).
These changes did work to stiffen things up at lower speeds, and to give good steering response and low body roll at those lower speeds, but, perhaps because Lexus chassis engineers are not as adept as those from BMW and Mercedes-Benz at achieving the ideal compromise under all conditions, allowed for progressively more body roll and less steering reponse as speeds increased, which, of course, put progressively more load on the suspension and tires. They is why BMW and Mercedes chassis engineers are so well-renowned.....they know how to design suspension components (and which tires to use) to achieve an almost-ideal combination of ride/handling combination across the board. BMW engineers, it is agreed, generally do chassis design better than those of any other make.
There is also the question of static vs. "active" (or variable) suspensions. Some suspensions can compromise ride vs. handling with electronically-adjustable components, and the GM Magna-Ride system even goes one step farther by the automatic (and constant) realignment of magnetic particles in the electronic shocks as cruise and cornering loads on them change split-second demands for damping. The ES, of course, lacks features such as these, and has to make do with the static system that the engineers gave it.
That static system, while not bad, is clearly not one of the better ride-vs.-handling compromises on the market.
We'll have to wait and see how much competition the new 2010 Buick LaCrosse gives it. The LaCrosse, despite somewhat lower interior-materials and sheet metal quality, has a lot to offer in the engineering department.
This, in the ES, was also multiplied by the additional stiffening of the suspension/shocks in the 2007 model to try and give the chassis more response, as the former ES330 was great for comfort but not much of a canyon-carver (another silly move, IMO, as the ES is not supposed to be a canyon-carver, but a comfortable cruiser).
These changes did work to stiffen things up at lower speeds, and to give good steering response and low body roll at those lower speeds, but, perhaps because Lexus chassis engineers are not as adept as those from BMW and Mercedes-Benz at achieving the ideal compromise under all conditions, allowed for progressively more body roll and less steering reponse as speeds increased, which, of course, put progressively more load on the suspension and tires. They is why BMW and Mercedes chassis engineers are so well-renowned.....they know how to design suspension components (and which tires to use) to achieve an almost-ideal combination of ride/handling combination across the board. BMW engineers, it is agreed, generally do chassis design better than those of any other make.
There is also the question of static vs. "active" (or variable) suspensions. Some suspensions can compromise ride vs. handling with electronically-adjustable components, and the GM Magna-Ride system even goes one step farther by the automatic (and constant) realignment of magnetic particles in the electronic shocks as cruise and cornering loads on them change split-second demands for damping. The ES, of course, lacks features such as these, and has to make do with the static system that the engineers gave it.
That static system, while not bad, is clearly not one of the better ride-vs.-handling compromises on the market.
We'll have to wait and see how much competition the new 2010 Buick LaCrosse gives it. The LaCrosse, despite somewhat lower interior-materials and sheet metal quality, has a lot to offer in the engineering department.
11-08-09, 04:21 PM
#36
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
Thanks, Russ.
Suspension/chassis enginering can be very complex, and it is often difficult for the engineers to get it right. On some race cars, for example, the crew chief and team mechanics sometimes fiddle with suspension settings and tires for weeks until they find the unique set-up needed for each driver....and track conditions.
Last edited by mmarshall; 11-08-09 at 04:25 PM.
11-08-09, 10:50 PM
#37
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I'm pretty sure the Camry/ES exhaust setup is a one-to-two split. I can see the split just by squatting behind the car. Nice review; although I no longer have my '08 ES, I am glad that Lexus is addressing most of the criticisms and other shortcomings of the early builds.
11-09-09, 06:31 AM
#38
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Thread Starter
I'm pretty sure the Camry/ES exhaust setup is a one-to-two split. I can see the split just by squatting behind the car. Nice review; although I no longer have my '08 ES, I am glad that Lexus is addressing most of the criticisms and other shortcomings of the early builds.
I figured it was probably a split-pipe, as the ES is clearly not a sporting vehicle. I'm not as young or agile as I used to be (I'm in my late 50's now), and, though I still sometimes crawl under vehicles to check out the underpinnings (like I did for the Ford F-150 Raptor a few weeks ago, as that truck is known for its tank-like chassis), I generally don't make a habit of it any more.
11-09-09, 06:44 AM
#39
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11-09-09, 07:47 AM
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Thanks MMarshall for the wonderful review once again IMO your reviews are better than the content I read on automobile magazines these days keep them coming.
IMO your reviews are better than the content I read on automobile magazines these days keep them coming.
11-09-09, 07:49 AM
#41
Lexus Champion
Even though Buick gets high marks from consumer groups for reliability, there is too much inconsistency in the quality of its dealers. If Buick produced a product equal to the ES350 in every respect, the perks (loaner car, comfortable waiting areas, etc.) and prestige of ownership would still not be the same as Lexus, nor would the resale value, even with its better warranty.
Possibly from strictly a product standpoint, the Lacrosse matches the ES350 in several respects, but as a whole, people buy Lexus and other premium brands for more than just the product. In my opinion, Buick has a way to go before they can be looked at as a tier one manufacturer.
Possibly from strictly a product standpoint, the Lacrosse matches the ES350 in several respects, but as a whole, people buy Lexus and other premium brands for more than just the product. In my opinion, Buick has a way to go before they can be looked at as a tier one manufacturer.
You're correct that Buick can't even come close to comparing to Lexus for prestige, if impressing your peers matters to you. In this economy it seems some people actually are going for the opposite effect. Also its dealers and overall ownership experience have a long way to go before they can be competitive with Lexus. Hyundai has a similar problem with the Genesis.
However even still I don't think that makes the LaCrosse a bad choice... have you compared pricing? With similar options the LaCrosse is, based on my own observations, on average over 7 grand less expensive than the ES. Additionally while the service experience isn't as nice, it's almost definitely less expensive. That's before rebates too... I don't think the LaCrosse has any rebates yet but knowing GM we'll probably be seeing $1500-$3000 rebates and/or 0% financing here within the next year.
I'm not saying the ES is the wrong answer, I'm just saying there's more to the equation.
11-09-09, 10:50 AM
#42
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11-09-09, 10:55 AM
#43
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Thread Starter
Some newspaper-column auto reviews I have read, in the past, have admittedly been poorly written (and often one-sided), but, to be honest, the ones I have seen lately (in the last few months) have been MUCH better. I have seen an especially good improvement, recently, in the reviews published in the Washington Times Auto Weekly.
11-09-09, 11:06 AM
#44
Lexus Test Driver
You're correct that Buick can't even come close to comparing to Lexus for prestige, if impressing your peers matters to you. In this economy it seems some people actually are going for the opposite effect. Also its dealers and overall ownership experience have a long way to go before they can be competitive with Lexus. Hyundai has a similar problem with the Genesis.
However even still I don't think that makes the LaCrosse a bad choice... have you compared pricing? With similar options the LaCrosse is, based on my own observations, on average over 7 grand less expensive than the ES. Additionally while the service experience isn't as nice, it's almost definitely less expensive. That's before rebates too... I don't think the LaCrosse has any rebates yet but knowing GM we'll probably be seeing $1500-$3000 rebates and/or 0% financing here within the next year.
I'm not saying the ES is the wrong answer, I'm just saying there's more to the equation.
However even still I don't think that makes the LaCrosse a bad choice... have you compared pricing? With similar options the LaCrosse is, based on my own observations, on average over 7 grand less expensive than the ES. Additionally while the service experience isn't as nice, it's almost definitely less expensive. That's before rebates too... I don't think the LaCrosse has any rebates yet but knowing GM we'll probably be seeing $1500-$3000 rebates and/or 0% financing here within the next year.
I'm not saying the ES is the wrong answer, I'm just saying there's more to the equation.
11-09-09, 11:10 AM
#45
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
In this economy it seems some people actually are going for the opposite effect. Also its dealers and overall ownership experience have a long way to go before they can be competitive with Lexus. Hyundai has a similar problem with the Genesis.
However even still I don't think that makes the LaCrosse a bad choice... have you compared pricing? With similar options the LaCrosse is, based on my own observations, on average over 7 grand less expensive than the ES. Additionally while the service experience isn't as nice, it's almost definitely less expensive. That's before rebates too... I don't think the LaCrosse has any rebates yet but knowing GM we'll probably be seeing $1500-$3000 rebates and/or 0% financing here within the next year.
I'm not saying the ES is the wrong answer, I'm just saying there's more to the equation.
I'm not saying the ES is the wrong answer, I'm just saying there's more to the equation.