Review: 2010 Lexus ES350
11-09-09, 11:44 AM
#47
You're correct that Buick can't even come close to comparing to Lexus for prestige, if impressing your peers matters to you. In this economy it seems some people actually are going for the opposite effect. Also its dealers and overall ownership experience have a long way to go before they can be competitive with Lexus. Hyundai has a similar problem with the Genesis.
However even still I don't think that makes the LaCrosse a bad choice... have you compared pricing? With similar options the LaCrosse is, based on my own observations, on average over 7 grand less expensive than the ES. Additionally while the service experience isn't as nice, it's almost definitely less expensive. That's before rebates too... I don't think the LaCrosse has any rebates yet but knowing GM we'll probably be seeing $1500-$3000 rebates and/or 0% financing here within the next year.
I'm not saying the ES is the wrong answer, I'm just saying there's more to the equation.
However even still I don't think that makes the LaCrosse a bad choice... have you compared pricing? With similar options the LaCrosse is, based on my own observations, on average over 7 grand less expensive than the ES. Additionally while the service experience isn't as nice, it's almost definitely less expensive. That's before rebates too... I don't think the LaCrosse has any rebates yet but knowing GM we'll probably be seeing $1500-$3000 rebates and/or 0% financing here within the next year.
I'm not saying the ES is the wrong answer, I'm just saying there's more to the equation.
My ES list with just about the same equipment is $40840with rain sensing wipers and full size spare.Both I don't believe available on the Buick.
The LeCrosse CXL is $38155 with sun shade,heated steering wheel and bigger sunroof.
Add in you would get a bigger discount off the ES at this point too.
Optional Equipment $5,585
UYS AM/FM/XM Radio w/Navigation $1,995
PCK Luxury Package $1,350
C3U Oversized Power Sunroof $995
TT2 Xenon High-intensity Discharge Headlamps $695
PCM Comfort and Convenience Package #2 $550
Destination Charge $750
Total with Options $38,155
Last edited by Joeb427; 11-09-09 at 12:08 PM.
11-09-09, 12:27 PM
#48
Lexus Champion
Where do you come up with this $7K difference?
My ES list with just about the same equipment is $40840.
The LeCrosse CXL is $38155 with sun shade and bigger sunroof.
Add in you would get a bigger discount off the ES at this point too.
Optional Equipment $5,585
UYS AM/FM/XM Radio w/Navigation $1,995
PCK Luxury Package $1,350
C3U Oversized Power Sunroof $995
TT2 Xenon High-intensity Discharge Headlamps $695
PCM Comfort and Convenience Package #2 $550
Destination Charge $750
Total with Options $38,155
My ES list with just about the same equipment is $40840.
The LeCrosse CXL is $38155 with sun shade and bigger sunroof.
Add in you would get a bigger discount off the ES at this point too.
Optional Equipment $5,585
UYS AM/FM/XM Radio w/Navigation $1,995
PCK Luxury Package $1,350
C3U Oversized Power Sunroof $995
TT2 Xenon High-intensity Discharge Headlamps $695
PCM Comfort and Convenience Package #2 $550
Destination Charge $750
Total with Options $38,155
The fully loaded FWD CXS (top trim) (only option left off is sport/touring package and rear seat DVD/ent package) is $37,800 w/ destination. The CXL (the mid-tier trim that you priced out above) sans the AWD is around 1 grand less than that.
ES350 w/ Ultra Lux and Nav/Lev is $43,275. There are a few differences in trim but overall they're very comparable.
Not 7 grand but about 5.5k less for the CXS or 6.5k less than the CXL with all the options. So it seems I wasn't quite accurate with my earlier statement of 7 grand, but it's still a significant difference.
11-09-09, 12:35 PM
#50
That's the AWD LaCrosse you've priced out there.
The fully loaded FWD CXS (top trim) (only option left off is sport/touring package and rear seat DVD/ent package) is $37,800 w/ destination. The CXL (the mid-tier trim that you priced out above) sans the AWD is around 1 grand less than that.
ES350 w/ Ultra Lux and Nav/Lev is $43,275. There are a few differences in trim but overall they're very comparable.
Not 7 grand but about 5.5k less for the CXS or 6.5k less than the CXL with all the options. So it seems I wasn't quite accurate with my earlier statement of 7 grand, but it's still a significant difference.
The fully loaded FWD CXS (top trim) (only option left off is sport/touring package and rear seat DVD/ent package) is $37,800 w/ destination. The CXL (the mid-tier trim that you priced out above) sans the AWD is around 1 grand less than that.
ES350 w/ Ultra Lux and Nav/Lev is $43,275. There are a few differences in trim but overall they're very comparable.
Not 7 grand but about 5.5k less for the CXS or 6.5k less than the CXL with all the options. So it seems I wasn't quite accurate with my earlier statement of 7 grand, but it's still a significant difference.
CXL RWD still comes out to $35980 comparably equipped with my ES at $40840.
So it is about $5K.
We were both off by a couple of grand.
Last edited by Joeb427; 11-09-09 at 12:38 PM.
11-09-09, 12:41 PM
#51
Lexus Champion
For example do you have the Mark Levinson audio system? If not that for example is kind of hard to compare because in order to give the LaCrosse navigation you have to also give it the premium surround sound system. Also the Lacrosse's sunroof is somewhere between the base ES' sunroof and the panoramic roof... so it's hard to compare. Basically it sounds like maybe the way you have the CXL equipped it's got a couple extras that your ES is missing.
11-09-09, 12:47 PM
#52
The Buick has a heated steering wheel and sunshade.
I believe the only sunroof may be the oversized one.
$5,165 $4,245
NV Navigation System $2,465 $2,085
HL HID Headlamps w/Adaptive Front Lighting System $815 $652
HH Heated and Ventilated Front Seats $640 $512
PA Intuitive Parking Assist $500 $400
WU Wood and Leather Steering Wheel & Shift **** $330 $264
Prefered Accessory kit $210 $168
Wheel locks,Trunk Mat and Cargo Net
FS Full-Size Spare Tire $205 $164
Color Adjustment - - $0
Tungsten Pearl
Destination Charge $875
Total with Options $40,840 $36,673
Last edited by Joeb427; 11-09-09 at 12:53 PM.
11-09-09, 01:16 PM
#53
Lexus Champion
No rain sensing wipers or full size spare available with the Buick.
The Buick has a heated steering wheel and sunshade.
I believe the only sunroof may be the oversized one.
$5,165 $4,245
NV Navigation System $2,465 $2,085
HL HID Headlamps w/Adaptive Front Lighting System $815 $652
HH Heated and Ventilated Front Seats $640 $512
PA Intuitive Parking Assist $500 $400
WU Wood and Leather Steering Wheel & Shift **** $330 $264
Prefered Accessory kit $210 $168
Wheel locks,Trunk Mat and Cargo Net
FS Full-Size Spare Tire $205 $164
Color Adjustment - - $0
Tungsten Pearl
Destination Charge $875
Total with Options $40,840 $36,673
The Buick has a heated steering wheel and sunshade.
I believe the only sunroof may be the oversized one.
$5,165 $4,245
NV Navigation System $2,465 $2,085
HL HID Headlamps w/Adaptive Front Lighting System $815 $652
HH Heated and Ventilated Front Seats $640 $512
PA Intuitive Parking Assist $500 $400
WU Wood and Leather Steering Wheel & Shift **** $330 $264
Prefered Accessory kit $210 $168
Wheel locks,Trunk Mat and Cargo Net
FS Full-Size Spare Tire $205 $164
Color Adjustment - - $0
Tungsten Pearl
Destination Charge $875
Total with Options $40,840 $36,673
I think to be realistic you have to include the Mark Levinson upgrade when price comparing unless you really have no desire for that option but really want nav, and in that case I guess that's just a downfall that the LaCrosse isn't available with nav without the sound system upgrade... but still... to make them as comparable as possible I think it needs to be added to the ES.
In addition to the heated steering wheel and rear sun shade, the LaCrosse you priced out also has heads up display, side blind zone alert, and I think more airbags for back seat passengers (thorax and rear side airbags)... but I'm not sure that the ES doesn't have those.
In the end I guess it just depends on what you prioritize in terms of options. See, for example, for me, I would actually rather have no sunroof at all. It's just one more thing to cause excess wind noise, rattles, extra weight, increased cost, and on more thing to break. The LaCrosse's sunroof is more than double the normal size of a sunroof... that's the only way you can get it, but it's at least optional so I could exclude it. For me that's an automatic $1000 savings off the price of the LaCrosse you're pricing out in your example.
However for you it appears you don't care about sound systems but do want nav, so you'd actually see the LaCrosse's price structure as less appealing.
So you can see how for me the price difference is closer to 7k and for you it's closer to 5k when we get all the features we want and leave out the ones we don't care about.
11-09-09, 01:21 PM
#54
Hmm... that's really interesting. I did not until this point realize that rain sensing wipers weren't available on the LaCrosse. That's really strange for them to leave it out.
I think to be realistic you have to include the Mark Levinson upgrade when price comparing unless you really have no desire for that option but really want nav, and in that case I guess that's just a downfall that the LaCrosse isn't available with nav without the sound system upgrade... but still... to make them as comparable as possible I think it needs to be added to the ES.
In addition to the heated steering wheel and rear sun shade, the LaCrosse you priced out also has heads up display, side blind zone alert, and I think more airbags for back seat passengers (thorax and rear side airbags)... but I'm not sure that the ES doesn't have those.
In the end I guess it just depends on what you prioritize in terms of options. See, for example, for me, I would actually rather have no sunroof at all. It's just one more thing to cause excess wind noise, rattles, extra weight, increased cost, and on more thing to break. The LaCrosse's sunroof is more than double the normal size of a sunroof... that's the only way you can get it, but it's at least optional so I could exclude it. For me that's an automatic $1000 savings off the price of the LaCrosse you're pricing out in your example.
However for you it appears you don't care about sound systems but do want nav, so you'd actually see the LaCrosse's price structure as less appealing.
So you can see how for me the price difference is closer to 7k and for you it's closer to 5k when we get all the features we want and leave out the ones we don't care about.
I think to be realistic you have to include the Mark Levinson upgrade when price comparing unless you really have no desire for that option but really want nav, and in that case I guess that's just a downfall that the LaCrosse isn't available with nav without the sound system upgrade... but still... to make them as comparable as possible I think it needs to be added to the ES.
In addition to the heated steering wheel and rear sun shade, the LaCrosse you priced out also has heads up display, side blind zone alert, and I think more airbags for back seat passengers (thorax and rear side airbags)... but I'm not sure that the ES doesn't have those.
In the end I guess it just depends on what you prioritize in terms of options. See, for example, for me, I would actually rather have no sunroof at all. It's just one more thing to cause excess wind noise, rattles, extra weight, increased cost, and on more thing to break. The LaCrosse's sunroof is more than double the normal size of a sunroof... that's the only way you can get it, but it's at least optional so I could exclude it. For me that's an automatic $1000 savings off the price of the LaCrosse you're pricing out in your example.
However for you it appears you don't care about sound systems but do want nav, so you'd actually see the LaCrosse's price structure as less appealing.
So you can see how for me the price difference is closer to 7k and for you it's closer to 5k when we get all the features we want and leave out the ones we don't care about.
No doubt there's a big price difference.
It all comes down to which one you like for whatever reasons.
Because of all the hoopla,I looked at the LaCrosse but bought the ES.
I won't buy an American badge.Even more now with the GM bailout...
My kids buy Japanese badges too.
Last edited by Joeb427; 11-09-09 at 02:06 PM.
11-09-09, 02:02 PM
#55
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
If your G/F wants a new ES, it might be a good idea for you to go back with her to the same salesperson who sold you the GS hybrid....if he or she is still in the sales buisness. If not, it still is sometimes a good idea to still use the same dealership and be a repeat customer.......you can often get good or preferential deals that way. If you make friends with salespeople and managers, it can really help you in the long run. Trust me.....I know.
11-09-09, 02:12 PM
#56
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
While rain-sensing wipers are, no doubt, a nice convienence under conditions where the wipers have to often speed up and down to keep pace with the raindrops, like in stop-and-go-driving where you are often fiddling up and down manually with the variable-speed wiper control, I'm still not a big fan of them. The reason: If there is dirt and debris on the windshield and it just starts to rain or very light drizzle, the sensors start to move the dirty wiper blades back and forth across the dirty glass BEFORE enough water piles up on the windshield to keep the dirty blades from abrading and maybe putting fine scratches on the glass. That is the #1 reason why so many windshields have those arc-shaped fine lines and scratches across the glass....abrasion from too much wiper action and not enough water on the glass.
11-09-09, 02:49 PM
#58
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
Thanks.
Most of the loose build quality and interior problems do seem to have been addressed. My only remaining complaint is that I'd like to see them go back to higher-profile tires and slightly softer suspension like the old ES330 had. I still, even after some 3 years, see no reason why this car had to get the more-aggreessive rubber and underpinnings for the 2007 redesign....the ES is supposed to be a soft-riding cruiser, not a sports sedan or BMW wanna-be. It also needs an AWD option to be able to compete with its rival AWD Buick LaCrosse in bad-weather areas.
Thanks for comparing it to the older ES350s. I'm sure a lot of us wanted to know if Toyota fixed the issues that were apparent in the 2007 ES350.
11-09-09, 02:51 PM
#59
Lexus Champion
While rain-sensing wipers are, no doubt, a nice convienence under conditions where the wipers have to often speed up and down to keep pace with the raindrops, like in stop-and-go-driving where you are often fiddling up and down manually with the variable-speed wiper control, I'm still not a big fan of them. The reason: If there is dirt and debris on the windshield and it just starts to rain or very light drizzle, the sensors start to move the dirty wiper blades back and forth across the dirty glass BEFORE enough water piles up on the windshield to keep the dirty blades from abrading and maybe putting fine scratches on the glass. That is the #1 reason why so many windshields have those arc-shaped fine lines and scratches across the glass....abrasion from too much wiper action and not enough water on the glass.
Personally I like them, but along with things like my rear sunshade, drivers seat extender and adjustable lumbar support, to me they are nice to have, but not really need to have. More often than not, I forget to use them.
Last edited by LexBob2; 11-09-09 at 02:54 PM.
11-09-09, 03:01 PM
#60
Lexus Champion
While rain-sensing wipers are, no doubt, a nice convienence under conditions where the wipers have to often speed up and down to keep pace with the raindrops, like in stop-and-go-driving where you are often fiddling up and down manually with the variable-speed wiper control, I'm still not a big fan of them. The reason: If there is dirt and debris on the windshield and it just starts to rain or very light drizzle, the sensors start to move the dirty wiper blades back and forth across the dirty glass BEFORE enough water piles up on the windshield to keep the dirty blades from abrading and maybe putting fine scratches on the glass. That is the #1 reason why so many windshields have those arc-shaped fine lines and scratches across the glass....abrasion from too much wiper action and not enough water on the glass.
I also recently discovered that at least in the case of the 335i, a windshield replacement for a 3 series WITHOUT the rain sensing wiper feature is about $300, whereas replacement WITH the feature costs $600.
I don't know about you but I seem to have to replace a windshield on my cars on average once every 4-5 years so if I'm going to have a car for 8-10 years that means the rain sensing wipers on average will cost me $600 additional in windshield replacement expenses. Not worth it to me.