mmarshall

OK, fair enough.

IS-SV

1. As I said earlier, balance sheet of Toyota and Honda are stronger than Ford, which is a different financial metric than the horrid P&L loses that Ford has shown or Toyota recently for that matter. Toyota had a loss for one year. GM, Ford, Chrysler have had losses for years and years, no wonder they are all in various states of weakness. Comparing GM to Toyota is a joke for rooky sensationalist analysts mostly. But the point of mentioning Ford stock is that I was glad the condo was purchased with the sale of Ford stock, because Ford stock has been a pathetic investment for the most part.

2. No I owned the condo for several years and sold it for $35K profit in 1999. I guess as the story goes "the rich get richer and the poor get poorer" is the trend as usual.

IS-SV

I guess everybody thought sticking to the topic was like watching paint dry.

mmarshall

Watching paint dry may not be so bad when you are getting UAW wages/benefits for it on the assembly line.

LexBob2

The ES350 is assembled in Japan. No UAW there, but I think their workers make good money relatively speaking.

IS-SV

That's your opinion, but certainly not my ambition or even my income/benefit level.

IS-SV

Exactly, non-UAW plants in the US and Japan pay very well for their respective regions. And they don't lay off tens of thousands of workers year after year, certainly have better long-term employment prospects.

mmarshall

That probably has more to do with the sales succeses of the vehicles those plants produce, rather than how much the employees there actually make. Some of the top-selling vehicles in the country come from non-UAW plants, although, admittedly, the popular Ford F-150 and Chevy Silverado have unionized plants. The point, though, is that sales, in the long run, probably determine plant survivability more than hourly labor rates/benefits. Large domestic trucks and SUV's, in particular, have had very high profit margins, even with high UAW labor rates.

Like you said a few posts ago, though...........back to topic.

LexFather

Its the culture of the companies as well. The TL is made in Ohio and quality has improved. The new vehicle is as well built as an ES in Japan IMO. I can't say one is better built than the other new. Over time, I would place my money on the ES for build quality.

IS-SV

Yes product mix plays a big part, agreed. But regardless, the UAW plants have bled jobs by the tens of thousands, where the non-UAW plants have grown over last decade, just statistical facts, I was not giving reasons. But (UAW job) would certainly not be a long term career path that I would recommend to my close friends or family.

The profitability of ancient pickup trucks (which btw have gone through their own death spiral of a sales decline lately) has a lot to do with fully amortized production costs, old crude low-tech designs, low direct material costs and overly high MSRP's. The big 3 learned the hard way that to be a profitable full line car maker, you need to make more than just good trucks and truck-based SUVs.

And back to the topic at hand, the ES is a good example of well-engineered with good build quality product that's held its own through a difficult period in automotive history. And it's a nice niche lux product that BMW and Mercedes have chosen not to compete with in the US market.

mmarshall

I'd say that more for the newest versions of the ES (2009-1010)....even though there was no major redesign for 2010, the 2009 and 2010 models (especially the new 2010) seem better-built, with nicer materials, than when the 350 first came out in 2006-2007. As I have stated many times, I was not impressed with them at all. Of course, my own personal opinion is not necessarily gospel....(I'm just one of many)......and, in fact, the 2006-2007 models were otherwise reliable, even though they had dash squeaks and rattles)

Wow, after a lot of pans, you've got some respect for the TL, after all. But PLEASE don't say you now like the parrot-beak grille or the rear end. (Even I can't stand those....and I'm usually pretty tolerant on body styling)

LexBob2

I recently drove an '09 ES350 loaner with 2,500 miles on it while my '07 was in for the 3yr/36k service. I didn't notice any difference in build quality. The loaner was tight and rattle free, the same as is my '07. Also the quality of the interior pieces was the same in both cars.

Some owners did report some issues with the early builds, but I'm not sure how widespread they were considering the sales volume when the new gen came out.

spwolf

of course the materials are the same... now mmarshal will think i am picking on him

mmarshall

Yes, the ES350 I originally reviewed (not the new 2010 in the thread) was an early-production model....it had the dash squeaks/rattles you speak of. Also, a slightly (but noticeably) stiffer ride than the previous ES330, due to the new firmer suspension and lower-profile tires. Several of the early faults seem to have been addressed in the meantime.....I noticed that on 2008-2009 models and, even more, on the 2010 I just reviewed.

I'm glad you have had good luck with your 2007 model. I haven't driven a later-year production model 2007, so I can't comment directly on them.....I'll take your word for it, as I know you are a credible poster.

IS-SV

I had a 2007 ES350 loaner for over a week and put over 1000 miles on it, no rattles, no quality issues. I even took a long drive through twisty mountain roads one weekend.

I do appreciate the perspectives of the actual owners here, because they are giving some of the best feedback that only comes from long term ownership of several brands. Yes many of us do frequently take test drives, but feedback from those living with a car for a week, month, year or more really is educational.