RXSF

as i mentioned before, Lexus does not post combined torque numbers of the electric motors and gas engine, only the gas engine is rated. If you get 30-32mpg on your highway runs, then congrats, that is great news.

but the EPA rates the ML bluetec at 18/25. Since the RX is judged by the same scale and gets 28 on the highway, then it would only make sense for the RX to also have better fuel economy in real world driving too.

ML350 bluetech: annual tons of CO2 - 10.1
RX450h hybrid: annual tons of CO2 - 6.1

0-60:
ML - 8.0 seconds
RX - 7.4-7.8 seconds

and in this particular case, the diesel costs 6K more than the hybrid.

CDNROCKIES

Just a couple things...

The ML diesel isn't nearly that fast. 8.6s is more like it.
And up here it's only $1K difference between a loaded ML Bluetec ($72K) and a loaded RX450h ($71K).
Try towing anything with an RX.

They're both very good vehicles that target different needs.

RXSF

agreed both are good vehicles that try to tackle the same problem. Glad MB is joining the boat with hybrids though

spwolf

it cool that you like you like your car, but lets be objective here for a bit. Torque is definetly not an problem in RX450h, it has huge amounts of it due to 3 electric motors (figure you quoted is just the gas engine). So last thing you should be mentioning here is the torque. Autobild tested Q7 V6 Blue Diesel vs RX450h in their last issue and found powertrain of RX to be much superior at speeds less than 100 mph - a lot more power, a lot less consumption.

As to the EPA figures, they are lab tests designed to level the playing field. So yeah, you "can get" better than EPA, but so can RX drivers and drivers of any other car.

When it comes to the ML Hybrid - it justs shows how much behind the germans are, they built the same concept vehicle, yet it is so much behind in fuel economy. How long will it take them to match 2nd gen RX? 2-3 product cycles?

I mean they still use automatic transmission in it, no wonder it gets bad mpg.


p.s. yes, diesels are noisy by any stretch of the imagination. Are they less noisy than in 80's? Yes. Are they still noisy? Yes. Some people here even like the noise (Europe). 90% of people would never buy petrol engine but in cars of size of Corolla and smaller. It is due to better consumption, better performance and considerably better used value. I always thought diesels are a lot better for USA and hybrids in Europe, but thats changing as these new emission laws are killing diesels economy and performance, as well as bringing the price up. Every new diesel that comes out with new EuroV and EuroVI norms has around 5%-10% lower performance/mpg and higher price.

CDNROCKIES

And from Lexus' figures any of this electric motor torque is useless in the real world. Explain to me how the RX450h has this abundance of torque and can't tow jack squat. 3500 lb towing capacity vs. 7000 lb from the Audi, BMW or MB. The RX does so many things well....but this is clearly not one of it's strengths.


I don't disagree that they are behind in hybrid technology, that is obvious.


This is simply wrong. I have had several people comment on how they couldn't believe how quiet it is and that they can't believe a diesel can be that quiet. You cannot distinguish that it is a diesel at all from inside the vehicle....something that is night and day different than my buddy across the street with his diesel F350. Both my IS F and our former X5 make more noise than the ML at idle.

SLegacy99

I have! And with 2 electric motors driving each axle I was rather impressed. There's alot of torque available.
We tow our 21 foot boat and the occasional trailer.


Not to propegate the diesel vs. hybrid debate any further, but I have to say that the 400h runs fine on regular gas and that diesel costs 20 cents more than premium in eastern Pennsylvania. That negates savings.

spwolf

i am not sure to what lexus figures you reffer to as lexus quotes separatly torque from electric engines and gas engine. What you reffer to is gas engine figure. You are mixing things here now - i was not talking about towing, nor i am sure to what model you reffer to anymore. I was talking about RX450h was ML450 Hybrid. RX450h has huge amounts of torque, more so than V6 diesels, but it does not have unlimited electricity supply so that torque can not be used for towing. I suggest that you try out RX450h so you can see what I mean. Electric engines provide instant torque whenever called on, they just cant do it for hours needed for towing.

As to the diesel noise, yeah of course it is better than F350 truck. It is luxury SUV. I am European, >60% of cars around here are diesels. I get to drive many diesels (lucky!), i test drive most of the new cars that come to the market, so i understand what you are saying in the sense on how bad they were before in USA, but compare it to RX450h and see how noisy the diesel is. Again, i understand what you mean :-), i am just saying it is pretty relative to what you have experienced before.

RXSF

does torque translate directly to towing capability? I would think the RX cant tow as much do to the actual design of the vehicle (towing hitch etc) and not so much because it lacks power to do so.

Och

iTrader: (3)

I wouldn't tow anything with a unibody based SUV either way.

SLegacy99

I think you're on to something as the 400h has plenty of power to tow. The Tahoe hybrid is rated for 7000 lbs last time that I checked.

IS-SV

Interesting, but I question the reliability at least in the first year or so.

SLegacy99

Of the Rx or the Tahoe?

IS-SV

ML, topic of thread.

CDNROCKIES

Agreed.

Until MB and BMW demonstrate that this new to them technology will actually work without major headaches, I'd be very cautious.

SLegacy99

Well its the same tech that is in the Tahoe, which from what I have heard of it has been reliable.