Toyota recalls and related issues: BusinessWeek-Media owes Toyota an apology
01-27-10, 12:26 PM
#256
Lexus Test Driver
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i didn't even read it. this is too much for a man can handle in one day. 
my entire family is toyota-lexus owners. they are freakin out right now.
my entire family is toyota-lexus owners. they are freakin out right now.
01-27-10, 12:42 PM
#257
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
I don't believe drive by wire is necessary for vehicle stability system. Vehicle stability systems work by applying braking force to individual wheels as well as modulating the throttle.
We already know that braking can be done independently of throttle, so that leaves us with only throttle control to worry about. The 93-98 Supra Turbo had a traction control system where a 2nd throttle plate is normally in the open position. When the computer detects slippage, it signals an electric motor to shut that throttle plate. So, the first throttle plate that is cabled directly to the accelerator pedal can be in any position but the engine will behave like nobody's stepping on the gas.
Drive by wire's benefit is more for emissions IMO.
We already know that braking can be done independently of throttle, so that leaves us with only throttle control to worry about. The 93-98 Supra Turbo had a traction control system where a 2nd throttle plate is normally in the open position. When the computer detects slippage, it signals an electric motor to shut that throttle plate. So, the first throttle plate that is cabled directly to the accelerator pedal can be in any position but the engine will behave like nobody's stepping on the gas.
Drive by wire's benefit is more for emissions IMO.
01-27-10, 12:43 PM
#258
Yes, it does seem like the Toyapocalypse is upon us. However, if there is a silver lining, it is to educate drivers, or remind them, of how to respond in any car when confronted with a sudden acceleration situation...brake firmly, switch to neutral if necessary, etc. It's now known that the parking brake will have little effect, and that the push-button requires 3 seconds to shut off.
There is still going to be class-action litigation, and possibly more sensational news 'investigations', and then the experts at NHTSA, elsewhere will have an informed opinion. Sales will suffer, how much is the question. But the bottom line is safety, and the confidence in that MUST be restored. I hope this debacle teaches Toyota that safety is a cost-no-object issue, and they must build in more safety margins in their vehicles than ever before. With car hp going up, the brake override was a must.
I hope that they can get their ducks in order, finish this recall, address upset customers, and worry about the bottom line afterwards. The light is darkest before the dawn, or so they say, and this debacle is the time to see what the company's current leadership is made of.
There is still going to be class-action litigation, and possibly more sensational news 'investigations', and then the experts at NHTSA, elsewhere will have an informed opinion. Sales will suffer, how much is the question. But the bottom line is safety, and the confidence in that MUST be restored. I hope this debacle teaches Toyota that safety is a cost-no-object issue, and they must build in more safety margins in their vehicles than ever before. With car hp going up, the brake override was a must.
I hope that they can get their ducks in order, finish this recall, address upset customers, and worry about the bottom line afterwards. The light is darkest before the dawn, or so they say, and this debacle is the time to see what the company's current leadership is made of.
01-27-10, 12:59 PM
#259
Lexus Fanatic
Toyota takes recalls global
Dont merge this thread with the domestic recall thread. This is a different group of countries.
The Detroit Bureau reports today that Toyota is currently in discussions with other world governments and safety agencies about expanding its latest recall involving defective accelerator pedal mechanisms that may cause unintended acceleration. Eight models are included in the current U.S. recall, which affects some 2.3 million Toyota branded vehicles. Without a fix for the issue, Toyota is required by law to stop production and sales of the vehicles, which it did yesterday – some five days after the recall was announced. Toyota also announced another recall earlier this month affecting 4.2 million vehicles with floor mats that could trap accelerator pedals, also causing unintended acceleration, and while the two issues are said to be unrelated, around 1.7 million vehicles are affected by both recalls.
At the heart of this latest recall are accelerator pedal mechanisms produced by Indiana-based CTS Corp. at its plant in Mississauga, Ontario. What's not immediately known is whether the pedal mechanisms produced by CTS Corp. have been used in any models sold outside North America, or whether the problem with these parts is in their manufacturing or an issue with their design, choice of materials, etc. If it's the latter, the defective pedal mechanisms could be produced in other Toyota supplier plants around the world and be used in millions more vehicles than the ones covered by this latest recall in the U.S.
Toyota has not officially commented whether or not its considering expanding the recall to other markets, or other brands like Lexus and Scion. Stay tuned as more news about Toyota and its recall woes continues to surface.
The Detroit Bureau reports today that Toyota is currently in discussions with other world governments and safety agencies about expanding its latest recall involving defective accelerator pedal mechanisms that may cause unintended acceleration. Eight models are included in the current U.S. recall, which affects some 2.3 million Toyota branded vehicles. Without a fix for the issue, Toyota is required by law to stop production and sales of the vehicles, which it did yesterday – some five days after the recall was announced. Toyota also announced another recall earlier this month affecting 4.2 million vehicles with floor mats that could trap accelerator pedals, also causing unintended acceleration, and while the two issues are said to be unrelated, around 1.7 million vehicles are affected by both recalls.
At the heart of this latest recall are accelerator pedal mechanisms produced by Indiana-based CTS Corp. at its plant in Mississauga, Ontario. What's not immediately known is whether the pedal mechanisms produced by CTS Corp. have been used in any models sold outside North America, or whether the problem with these parts is in their manufacturing or an issue with their design, choice of materials, etc. If it's the latter, the defective pedal mechanisms could be produced in other Toyota supplier plants around the world and be used in millions more vehicles than the ones covered by this latest recall in the U.S.
Toyota has not officially commented whether or not its considering expanding the recall to other markets, or other brands like Lexus and Scion. Stay tuned as more news about Toyota and its recall woes continues to surface.
01-27-10, 01:09 PM
#260
Lexus Fanatic
The fix is in: Toyota has the replacement pedals ready to go
http://www.autoblog.com/2010/01/27/t...dals-ready-to/
Much of the controversy surrounding Toyota's latest recall of 2.3 million vehicles for defective accelerator pedal mechanisms has to do with the fact that the automaker didn't have a fix ready when the announcement was made last week. These assemblies can reportedly wear over time, causing the accelerator pedal to return to position slowly or even stick and cause unintended acceleration. Since there was no fix at the time of the announcement, Toyota halted sales of all eight models involved in the recall and decided to shut down the plants where they're assembled in early February to prevent inventory from backing up. This action occurred five days after the recall began and was reportedly done in consult with the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration since it's required to do so by law.
Well, the fix is in, so to speak, as Automotive News reports that affected Toyota plants are now gearing up to receive replacement accelerator pedal mechanisms. A Toyota spokesperson confirmed to the industry paper that the supplier responsible for manufacturing the parts, CTS Corporation, has finished developing a replacement mechanism and that some units have already been shipped to plants, though the amount and which plants received have them is unknown. The factories will likely still shut down from February 1–5 in order to keep inventory in check, but having the replacement assemblies now will help ensure they're in the pipeline when production of each model resumes.
Despite the good news for anyone considering the purchase of a Toyota model affected by the recall, Automotive News rightly points out that current owners may not benefit as quickly. There are 2.3 million vehicles in customers' driveways that require the replacement part, but AN sources say the plant that makes them has an annual capacity of just 2 million. Considering that Toyota's assembly plants also need to be supplied, we're wondering how Toyota will be able to fix each recalled vehicle in a timely manner.
On a related note, Toyota dealers are also reportedly getting instructions from the Mother Ship on how to answer questions related to the recall. AN editor James B. Treece reports that when asked if any accidents have been reported, dealers are encouraged to respond, "The number of accidents is still under investigation" without further confirmation. As Treece notes, the spin continues, as just a simple yes or no would suffice.
Much of the controversy surrounding Toyota's latest recall of 2.3 million vehicles for defective accelerator pedal mechanisms has to do with the fact that the automaker didn't have a fix ready when the announcement was made last week. These assemblies can reportedly wear over time, causing the accelerator pedal to return to position slowly or even stick and cause unintended acceleration. Since there was no fix at the time of the announcement, Toyota halted sales of all eight models involved in the recall and decided to shut down the plants where they're assembled in early February to prevent inventory from backing up. This action occurred five days after the recall began and was reportedly done in consult with the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration since it's required to do so by law.
Well, the fix is in, so to speak, as Automotive News reports that affected Toyota plants are now gearing up to receive replacement accelerator pedal mechanisms. A Toyota spokesperson confirmed to the industry paper that the supplier responsible for manufacturing the parts, CTS Corporation, has finished developing a replacement mechanism and that some units have already been shipped to plants, though the amount and which plants received have them is unknown. The factories will likely still shut down from February 1–5 in order to keep inventory in check, but having the replacement assemblies now will help ensure they're in the pipeline when production of each model resumes.
Despite the good news for anyone considering the purchase of a Toyota model affected by the recall, Automotive News rightly points out that current owners may not benefit as quickly. There are 2.3 million vehicles in customers' driveways that require the replacement part, but AN sources say the plant that makes them has an annual capacity of just 2 million. Considering that Toyota's assembly plants also need to be supplied, we're wondering how Toyota will be able to fix each recalled vehicle in a timely manner.
On a related note, Toyota dealers are also reportedly getting instructions from the Mother Ship on how to answer questions related to the recall. AN editor James B. Treece reports that when asked if any accidents have been reported, dealers are encouraged to respond, "The number of accidents is still under investigation" without further confirmation. As Treece notes, the spin continues, as just a simple yes or no would suffice.
01-27-10, 01:13 PM
#262
Pole Position
On all my prior cars (like my old Mini Cooper S), nothing happens, just sluggish acceleration due to the brakes being applied. But the car still accelerates.
The GTI, after about 2 seconds of both throttle and brake input, cuts the throttle completely and the car stops. Let go of the brake and you get full throttle control again.
I dunno why Toyota doesn't flash the cars to do this from factory? It's an excellent idea and should cost exactly $0 since it's just a few lines of code in the programming of the ECU.
01-27-10, 01:19 PM
#263
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
That is one of their recalls, to reflash the ECU. It sounds like Toyota will try to detect braking and decreasing speed as oppose to gas pedal and brake brake pedal.
01-27-10, 01:23 PM
#264
Lexus Test Driver
Autoblog is saying Toyota just announced there is now a fix and redesigned pedal ready from CTS. So within a few days, CTS was able to totally redesign a pedal, test it longterm, and have Toyota okay it? Ummm, no. It's obviously been in the works for some time, since Toyota and CTS has known for a long time there's been a problem and a need for a redesigned. Tisk tisk.
01-27-10, 01:27 PM
#265
Moderator
I hope that they can get their ducks in order, finish this recall, address upset customers, and worry about the bottom line afterwards. The light is darkest before the dawn, or so they say, and this debacle is the time to see what the company's current leadership is made of.
My brother just purchased a 2010 Corolla and he recently received a letter from Toyota but he hasn't opened the letter to read it yet. He's been too busy but will get around to it...
01-27-10, 01:28 PM
#266
Autoblog is saying Toyota just announced there is now a fix and redesigned pedal ready from CTS. So within a few days, CTS was able to totally redesign a pedal, test it longterm, and have Toyota okay it? Ummm, no. It's obviously been in the works for some time, since Toyota and CTS has known for a long time there's been a problem and a need for a redesigned. Tisk tisk.
It is however possible that there was an alternate CTS pedal design that has been tested long-term. Or, according to the USA Today article, the CTS pedals made for Honda and Mitsubishi have had no such wear problem, perhaps they paid to switch to those.
01-27-10, 03:18 PM
#267
Traction control works by cutting throttle when the computer detects wheel slippage, usually with drive by wire controls and the stability apply braking to individual wheel when it detect a stability problem. Some stability combine cutting throttle and braking each wheel to regain control faster.
Emission is a benefit as well as a non linear throttle map and smoother shifting. A stability system with drive by wire can cut throttle fully or partial to aid in gaining stability. A drive by wire system can also manipulate a throttle in many ways that a simple open and shut throttle plate cannot.
1. sensors on each wheel detect slip, sending signal to ecu
2. ecu sends signal to:
a. brake system, applying brakes on slipping wheel(s)
b. secondary throttle plate (mentioned above) or fuel injectors, closing or cutting power to those throttle-related items.
You can add a yaw system, and still not need drive-by-wire in above diagram since everything goes to the ecu.
Last edited by dsp979; 01-27-10 at 03:27 PM.
01-27-10, 03:35 PM
#268
Lexus Champion
I'm taking a big guess that some late model cars with mechanical cable throttles have VSC systems installed.
I want to say the mid-80s Mercedes 190e 2.3 16 valve had a primitive VSC system, or just traction control, and that it doesn't have DBW. This is just a guess.
Yes, cable throttle does get stuck. I had this problem on my 240sx. Luckily, the cable was too tight and just needed more slack.
I want to say the mid-80s Mercedes 190e 2.3 16 valve had a primitive VSC system, or just traction control, and that it doesn't have DBW. This is just a guess.
Yes, cable throttle does get stuck. I had this problem on my 240sx. Luckily, the cable was too tight and just needed more slack.
Mercedes and Bosch called the first traction control system ASR - their system monitors wheelspin at the rear wheels and retards throttle via a auxillary hydraulic butterfly. If wheelspin is detected, both rear wheels are braked and the engine is controlled via the auxillary butterfly.
ESP/VSC adds wheelspin control at each wheel - and each wheel can be braked individually. It also adds in a yaw sensor/gyroscope, steering angle sensor and an accelerometer to also detect when the vehicle is going off course. VDIM takes this even a step further by tying the stability control system with the electric power steering control and BBW control.
Last edited by nthach; 01-27-10 at 03:39 PM.
01-29-10, 12:30 AM
#269
Driver School Candidate
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Throttle-pedal assemblies from Toyota's other supplier, Denso, are not all interchangeable, eliminating that as a quick-fix solution, Toyota says.
http://pressroom.toyota.com/pr/tms/t...spx?ncid=11092
http://pressroom.toyota.com/pr/tms/t...al-152196.aspx
http://pressroom.toyota.com/pr/tms/m...er-153203.aspx.
Article on CTS: http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/...V_N.htm?csp=34
01-29-10, 04:08 AM
#270
I wonder if Denso pedals could have been used, instead of the now-suspect CTS ones.
It is however possible that there was an alternate CTS pedal design that has been tested long-term. Or, according to the USA Today article, the CTS pedals made for Honda and Mitsubishi have had no such wear problem, perhaps they paid to switch to those.
It is however possible that there was an alternate CTS pedal design that has been tested long-term. Or, according to the USA Today article, the CTS pedals made for Honda and Mitsubishi have had no such wear problem, perhaps they paid to switch to those.