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Toyota recalls and related issues: BusinessWeek-Media owes Toyota an apology

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Old 02-03-10, 11:22 AM
  #331  
flipside909
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Originally Posted by 1SICKLEX
From my understanding there is an unwritten rule to not attack competitors when they have a recall. EVERYONE has recalls.

Ford, GM, Hyundai, Chrysler have all broken that. They act like they haven't had them nor will have them in the future.

I applaud Honda for not stooping to those levels.
Well said. If anything, Toyota is actively doing something about it. Can't say much for the big 3 when they have their own historical issues.
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Old 02-03-10, 11:30 AM
  #332  
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Most of the hysteria and accusations come from the fact that media does not understand how the industry works and what is happening. I am not even sure if they should know this.

People need to realize that TSB's are created quite often for any problem that happens more than several times. If you work in dealer department, it is very very very rare that you come to some common issue that has not beed already explained/fixed via TSB. If issue is deemed significant enough (pretty much evertyhing but some plastic complaints), it is fixed on production line quite soon.

Now all these are separate from recalls. Recall is actually deciding that issue is big enough to be officially recalled. Almost always, there have been TSB's and production line changes much before recall, sometimes years (for instance Ford F150 airbags were known to be an issue, fixed on production line in 2006 and now they are thinking of recalling or not).

Every car that I know has had 20-30 TSB's issued in the lifetime and who knows how many production line changes on things they noticed. It is very common and usual.

The fact that Toyota did not have an TSB or production line change before recall announcement means that they have had known for issue for limited amount of time.

So all this hysteria about hiding and all these politicians trying to get some political points is bullsh.

If Toyota has known about this issue from 2007, it would have been fixed in 2007, like probably hundreds of other changes they did from 2007 onwards. And then you could aruge if they should have recalled those previously produced vehicles or not.

Now on the other hand, other manufacturers (i will taken in example that other thread from USA Today about other big NTHSA investigations), have known about their safety issues... like F150 being fixed 4 years ago but Ford deciding that exploding airbags are not recall material.

Now that is clear case of someone knowing about issue, accepting it as an issue, fixing it as an issue and then deciding that safety is not their priority. And nobody is saying an word about it. They invent stories and conjectures about Toyota.

That just tells you what the agenda is there.
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Old 02-03-10, 11:33 AM
  #333  
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Mr. La Hood proved what a buffoon he is with his irresponsible statement. IMO, that kind of hyperbole goes way over the line and perhaps peels back the curtain on their approach here. It's already backfired on him, he's been forced to retract it.

Originally Posted by MPLexus301
I am not trying to make excuses for what has happened, but from what I understand there have been a lot of opportunists trying to jump on the "Down with Toyota!" bandwagon since this all happened. Almost anyone who owns one of the affected cars and has had an accident of any kind has come out of the woodwork and blamed either the floor mat or accelerator, even when there is no chance it is related to their accident.

Because of this, it's going to be hard to determine what is fact and what is fiction for a while. I am looking forward to 2-3 months from now when the dust settles and we can look back on this and see what really happened.
Agreed completely.
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Old 02-03-10, 11:35 AM
  #334  
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Originally Posted by spwolf
The fact that Toyota did not have an TSB or production line change before recall announcement means that they have had known for issue for limited amount of time.
You are incorrect. Toyota has know for some time now there is some issue with unintended acceleration. Some people on forums claim back in 2005 that it is the air conditioning compressor turning on that gives the car a surge, others claim it was a floor mat (recall in 2007) more recently Toyota had thought it was floormats once again, now it appears there is a pedal problem..

What is clear is that Toyota does not really know what is causing it or how to fix. But they have known about it for a while now...and that is why the gov is getting involved.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/...ing02_VA_N.htm
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Old 02-03-10, 11:36 AM
  #335  
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Originally Posted by 1SICKLEX
From my understanding there is an unwritten rule to not attack competitors when they have a recall. EVERYONE has recalls.

Ford, GM, Hyundai, Chrysler have all broken that. They act like they haven't had them nor will have them in the future.

I applaud Honda for not stooping to those levels.
that's what happens when one is desperate. low class moves that's all i can say. i guess companies just think this is their best shot
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Old 02-03-10, 11:41 AM
  #336  
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example of minor fixes on production line and TSB issued: 2008 they issued TSB for peeling chrome paint on gearknobs for Corolla (TSB indentified as "due to low quality paint") and also fixed in on production line.

So people thinking that car companies just ignore issues is just not true... only problem is that when they indentify issues, they are slow to announce recalls (which was not the case here).
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Old 02-03-10, 11:45 AM
  #337  
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Originally Posted by pagemaster
You are incorrect. Toyota has know for some time now there is some issue with unintended acceleration. Some people on forums claim back in 2005 that it is the air conditioning compressor turning on that gives the car a surge, others claim it was a floor mat (recall in 2007) more recently Toyota had thought it was floormats once again, now it appears there is a pedal problem..

What is clear is that Toyota does not really know what is causing it or how to fix. But they have known about it for a while now...and that is why the gov is getting involved.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/...ing02_VA_N.htm
i dont even know what that means... If Toyota had known for pedals sticking, they would have fixed it.

Someone on forum saying this or that means nothing.

and again, you are talking crap. There was no accident with sticking gas pedals recall. NO ACCIDENT.

Gas pedal failure as in this case, would have been easily proven by any investigator and would have been known long time ago. It is not something that happens suddenly. If it happened 100 times, it would happen 101'th time.
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Old 02-03-10, 12:10 PM
  #338  
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and oh yeah, Steve went to CNN today and explained what it happens... he claims media took it out of the proportion and that he never claimed what they said that he did. It was quite hillarious to see him backing out of the hole he has dug for himself while host tried to get him to say how it is accelerating issue with Toyotas ;-).

Basically, smart Steve does not know how adaptive cruise control works - he presets higher speed in ACC (showed in dash as well) and then when car in front of him moves, and his ACC acclerates to set speed, he thought that was wrong and it should not have.

That the whole point of ACC (follows the car infront and when car moves, accelerates to preset speed). If Toyota didnt allow you to set ACC speed more than legal speed then everyone would beat Toyota over it, just as they did when you could not turn off VSC.
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Old 02-03-10, 12:25 PM
  #339  
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Default An automotive supplier trade publication weighs in

ANALYSIS: Supply chain management and the crisis at Toyota
Is Toyota's much vaunted supply chain management system on the verge of meltdown in the midst of the unfolding quality crisis centred on faulty accelerator pedals?

SupplierBusiness reports

The global quality crisis now hammering Toyota has launched a debate about whether the blame should be placed squarely on the company’s renowned system of supplier relations. At the very least, supplier executives say Toyota may be ready to reevaluate its method of early involvement and close, long-term partnerships with individual suppliers, as well as single-sourcing, in the wake of plans to modify or replace millions of faulty accelerator pedals around the world.

Is ‘The Toyota Way’ still the right way for a company that has grown so much in the past decade? Several schools of thought emerged in the days following last week's disastrous turn of events. Among them:

- Toyota's deeply integrated ties with its parts makers actually permitted the problems with the pedal modules to occur. How? The automaker has remained lean while its volume has increased dramatically since the days when the company's principles and methods were established. Thus, Toyota can no longer maintain sufficient support and quality control, especially as it adds new suppliers around the world. Yet it still governs the design of key components.

- Toyota's streamlined supply base is at fault. By relying so heavily on sole suppliers and using parts across multiple platforms and vehicles, the automaker increases its risks.

- Toyota's methods have minimised the damage - enabling a relatively quick fix to the sticky pedal problem because of the automaker's inherent ability to work closely with suppliers on engineering solutions.

But the consensus among analysts is that Toyota's rapid expansion is at the core of the problem. They say the company can no longer maintain the same level of quality control and engineering rigor. And they say Toyota has rushed into relationships with suppliers it has not adequately vetted, shifting away from trusted Japanese-based companies in favor of new parts makers located around the world.

The automaker has also been forced to slash costs as part of its growing orientation towards stock market performance that followed its listing on the New York exchange in the late 1990s. Also, Toyota's recalls have involved fantastically large numbers of vehicles, which some critics say is the result of reliance on single suppliers that provide common components for many platforms and vehicles. The lack of a second supplier means it can’t easily switch sources.

For CTS, it has been a sharp learning curve. Last week, the executives who run the half-billion dollar company might have been rethinking the wisdom of diversifying into the auto business five years ago. It has been exposed to the terrors of manufacturing high-profile products that are sold to millions of consumers.

CTS might have felt secure in the fact that its first automotive customer was Toyota. The components were engineered to Toyota's design. Toyota spokesman said, "Our position on suppliers has always been that Toyota is responsible for the cars."

The recall has increased CTS production, as it grinds out the replacement parts it has already begun shipping to Toyota assembly plants. CTS will also benefit from the Toyota manufacturing experts now entrenched in the supplier’s three factories to help speed production. That ought to yield long-term efficiency benefits to CTS. And the deep ties now being forged to Toyota could help assure future business.

Toyota looks to be doing the right thing by not turning CTS into an adversary in the crisis, as happened in the infamous Ford-Firestone recall in 2000. But CTS initially took issue with Toyota's claim that its pedals could be a source of unintended acceleration. CTS said that while reports of runaway Toyota vehicles went back as far as 1999, it did not begin making pedals for the company until the 2005 model year.

CTS executives seem to wonder why their component is being connected with Toyota's overall unintended acceleration crisis at all. They say there are not aware of any crashes or injuries caused by one of its pedals becoming stuck.

So the question arises: Despite the apparent cooperation between automaker and supplier has CTS been left to twist in the wind?

Toyota's recent problems certainly underscore how certain elements of its approach, including the cost-saving practice of using common parts and designs across multiple product lines, and reducing the number of suppliers to procure parts in greater scale can backfire when quality-control issues arise.

Whatever happens next, life has changed to one degree or another for Toyota suppliers in the past year. Production is down, Toyota has asked for price reductions and a new supplier quality offensive is sure to emerge from within the company. The next crop of supplier surveys that grade relations with the OEMs should be fascinating.

ANALYSIS: Supply chain management and the crisis at Toyota: Automotive News & Comment
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Old 02-03-10, 12:31 PM
  #340  
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Originally Posted by pagemaster
You are incorrect. Toyota has know for some time now there is some issue with unintended acceleration. Some people on forums claim back in 2005 that it is the air conditioning compressor turning on that gives the car a surge, others claim it was a floor mat (recall in 2007) more recently Toyota had thought it was floormats once again, now it appears there is a pedal problem..

What is clear is that Toyota does not really know what is causing it or how to fix. But they have known about it for a while now...and that is why the gov is getting involved.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/...ing02_VA_N.htm
I agree that Toyota has probably been aware of this issue for a problem. They have to weigh the law suits for wrongful death VS the cost of the recall. I think once the guy in the ES crashed in such a violent way that brought the company so much negative attention Toyota had to pull the trigger o the recall.
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Old 02-03-10, 12:43 PM
  #341  
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Originally Posted by I8ABMR
I agree that Toyota has probably been aware of this issue for a problem. They have to weigh the law suits for wrongful death VS the cost of the recall. I think once the guy in the ES crashed in such a violent way that brought the company so much negative attention Toyota had to pull the trigger o the recall.
Of course Toyota has been aware of this unintended acceleration problem. They likely have known there was an issue for quite some time. The real question is whether Toyota has known what the exact cause is.

If anyone has ever read car manufacturers vehicle durability summaries, which I am privy to (both Ford and Toyota) their testing data will tell you when a part will usually fail.
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Old 02-03-10, 12:45 PM
  #342  
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Originally Posted by spwolf
i dont even know what that means... If Toyota had known for pedals sticking, they would have fixed it.

Someone on forum saying this or that means nothing.

and again, you are talking crap. There was no accident with sticking gas pedals recall. NO ACCIDENT.

Gas pedal failure as in this case, would have been easily proven by any investigator and would have been known long time ago. It is not something that happens suddenly. If it happened 100 times, it would happen 101'th time.
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Old 02-03-10, 12:50 PM
  #343  
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Default LaHood telling Toyota owners to stop driving recalled cars. Breaking news

Appearing before a House Appropriations subcommittee on transportation this morning, Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood said that Toyota owners should "stop driving" their recalled vehicles until they're fixed.
"We need to fix the problem so people don't have to worry about disengaging the engine or slamming the brakes on or put it in neutral...If anybody owns [one] of these vehicles, stop driving it and take it to a Toyota dealer."
Sage advice or a precursor to panic? It's hard to say, though we've received emails from a number of Toyota customers who own recalled vehicles asking what they should do. LaHood has given an answer, and while it may seem overkill to some, the old adage "better safe than sorry" springs to mind. That said, letting your recalled Toyota sit unused may not be an option for some people who only own one vehicle, and LaHood's comment may create unnecessary fear for those owners.

We've been told that parts to fix the recalled vehicles are already being shipped to Toyota dealers around the country, and after a couple days of training they'll be ready to start fixing vehicles by this weekend at the latest. So, if owners of an affected vehicle heed LaHood's advice, they should only be without wheels for a few days or so, assuming their local Toyota dealer can handle the influx of recalled vehicles awaiting the fix.

UPDATE: According to a report by the AP, LaHood has retracted his statement calling for drivers of affected Toyotas to stop driving their cars, saying "What I said in there was obviously a misstatement." Mr. LaHood, a suggestion: Choose future declarations very carefully.

UPDATE: Toyota has released a statement about LaHood's remark and retraction, which you can read after the jump.

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/02/03/s...s-until-fixed/

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Old 02-03-10, 12:51 PM
  #344  
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MORE BAD NEWS

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/02/03/t...new-class-act/

And the Toyota beat rolls on. Or should we say the Toyota beat down rolls on. Check this out: a group of Toyota owners (and leasers) have asked a judge to file a class action suit demanding that until their accelerator pedals are fixed, Toyota should pick up the tab for the recalled cars. That's right, some folks in Cincinatti feel they shouldn't have to make any payments to Toyota until their cars are fixed. Here's what the lawyer filing the suit has to say:
"Until they make it safe, people shouldn't have to pay their lease payments and shouldn't have to make their bank payments. Let Toyota pick that up."
Not being of the legal persuasion, we have no idea if the judge will allow this, as it would set a fairly dangerous precedent for all auto makers. Imagine if every time a car got recalled for a faulty cup holder (or whatever) the owners didn't have to pay for it. While it might sound like music to a recalled person's ears, corporations have a nasty habit of massing them sorts of costs back onto the consumers en masse, meaning we all could suffer.

Though perhaps this proposed class action suit (the second one concerning ToMoCo we're aware of) will be contained just to Toyota. Here's a bit more of what the suit alleges, "[I]t was more important to Toyota to increase sales and become the largest manufacturer in the world. Toyota sacrificed innocent, trusting lives for profit and hubris." Your Volvo's stall-prone software is hardly in the same league.

The suit doesn't stop there. Another cited reason for Toyota to pick up the monthly payment tab is because all this recall hysteria has hurt the value of the cars in question. Frankly, and long term, that might be the most interesting point of all. The suit also claims that Toyota has previously "destroyed potentially incriminating documents" and wants the court put a stop to the alleged practice.

Last edited by I8ABMR; 02-03-10 at 12:59 PM. Reason: Toyota asked to make payments on recalled cars.....ouch
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Old 02-03-10, 12:55 PM
  #345  
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So which is it? Does Toyota really know what the fix is for the unintended acceleration problems or not? Apparently the U.S. House of Representatives wants a straight answer. It seems the House is a little upset with official statements made by the beleaguered Japanese automaker because they seem to contradict what Toyota told the House earlier. They're also disturbed by comments they heard from Toyota's U.S. President and COO Jim Lentz while on the Today Show with Matt Lauer.

The latest hearing notice came from the House Energy and Commerce committee, which was already scheduled to hold a hearing on February 25 to "examine the persistent consumer complaints of sudden unintended acceleration in vehicles manufactured by Toyota Motor Corporation," according to committee chairman Henry Waxman, D-Calif. They have given Toyota until Friday to answer a few questions about inconsistencies in some of Toyota's official statements.

The House says that Toyota gave assurances that they this issue under control, which don't match up with what Toyota had told them several days earlier. The House Energy and Commerce Committee's Chairman Henry Waxman, and investigation subcommittee chair, Rep. Bart Stupak, want some proof from Toyota to back up those claims by Friday. You can read the rest of the details after the jump.


http://www.autoblog.com/2010/02/03/h...ill-fix-all-a/

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